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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2013 20:13:39 GMT -5
See this BM groupie's comment about Brandt Snedeker www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/18078-15-230-400-a.htmlWhy does he think that he has a "bad swing" that needs fixing? I decided to examine some you-tube videos of BS's swing. I found this WdF analysis. I think that BD has a perfect swinger's golf swing action and I cannot see any flaws in his swing. I especially like the fact that he doesn't bend his knees/hips in his downswing in the "pivot compression" manner that is an irrational WdF swing-fetish. I think that BS maintains a perfectly FLW/intact LAFW throughout his swing action and he uses a delayed full-roll hand release action for his driver swing and a no-roll hand release action + CP-arm release action for his short iron swing. He also swings on-plane and traces a SPL between P4 and P7.5+. By the way, I think that a DTL camera should be positioned on the impact zone's inclined plane for optimum evaluation of shaft movements, and at the level of the hands - and not behind the hands-at-address as WdF suggests is the best camera position. The camera should definitely not be placed on the ball-target line because it makes the clubshaft "appear" to be below plane between P6 and P6.5 - and WdF correctly points out that important fact. I think that BS performs the "left hip clearing action" flawlessly, and he pulls his left pelvis back to the tush line without prematurely allowing his right buttocks to leave the tush line. Note that there is no "apparent" deceleration of his left thigh's counterclockwise rotation motion between P4 and P7. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 10, 2013 23:39:06 GMT -5
See this BM groupie's comment about Brandt Snedeker www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/18078-15-230-400-a.htmlWhy does he think that he has a "bad swing" that needs fixing?I decided to examine some you-tube videos of BS's swing. I found this WdF analysis. I think that BD has a perfect swinger's golf swing action and I cannot see any flaws in his swing. I especially like the fact that he doesn't bend his knees/hips in his downswing in the "pivot compression" manner that is an irrational WdF swing-fetish. I think that BS maintains a perfectly FLW/intact LAFW throughout his swing action and he uses a delayed full-roll hand release action for his driver swing and a no-roll hand release action + CP-arm release action for his short iron swing. He also swings on-plane and traces a SPL between P4 and P7.5+. By the way, I think that a DTL camera should be positioned on the impact zone's inclined plane for optimum evaluation of shaft movements, and at the level of the hands - and not behind the hands-at-address as WdF suggests is the best camera position. The camera should definitely not be placed on the ball-target line because it makes the clubshaft "appear" to be below plane between P6 and P6.5 - and WdF correctly points out that important fact. I think that BS performs the "left hip clearing action" flawlessly, and he pulls his left pelvis back to the tush line without prematurely allowing his right buttocks to leave the tush line. Note that there is no "apparent" deceleration of his left thigh's counterclockwise rotation motion between P4 and P7. Jeff. He doesn't. He's trying to be sarcastic. Snedeker, along with Mark Wilson, Like Donald, Rocco Mediate, Sergio Garcia and Rickie Fowler, has been featured as a "model swinger" at Manzella's at one time or another over the past 18 months. The only problem is that the stats off the tee are mediocre for Wilson and Snedeker, no better than above average for Garcia and Fowler, and downright poor for Donald and Mediate. None are elite. That point has been made regularly at jeffygolf: if you are going to pick a model, it might as well produce elite drivers. Manzella's model doesn't. mgranato is suggesting that Snedeker's recent success "has" to be due to a "superior" golf swing, not just putting, but, why not just look at the ballstriking stats to determine the quality of his swing? Because the stats don't give the answer he's looking for...
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 0:16:09 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Then I agree with the BM groupies regarding Brandt Snedeker. I think that he has a superlative golf swing action (like Virtuoso and Robert Rock). I think that your KM-influenced concept of "elite golfers" is not based on sound golf swing biomechanics, but on a few elite golfers who have the talent to overcome their less than optimal golf swing biomechanics (eg. spinning their floating left foot through impact and pulling the left foot back to regain their balance).
I have zero sympathy for 3jack's (or any other golf analyst's) statistical analysis of a PGA tour golfer's ball-striking results as being directly reflective of optimal golf swing biomechanics in the presence of a major confounding variable - an individual golfer's raw talent. For example, I think that Bubba Watson has an incredible amount of raw talent that far exceeds the fundamental quality of his golf swing's biomechanics. He may be an elite golfer in terms of ball-striking results, but I don't think that he is a good role model for an amateur golfer who wants to build a sound golf swing based on sound golf swing biomechanics. I much prefer the swing of Brandt Snedeker.
The same principle applies to Tiger Woods. He has the best results in terms of PGA tour competitions won during the last two decades - but I think that it is reflects his extraordinary level of raw talent that allows him to overcome many poor golf swing biomechanical actions eg. over-straightening his left leg through impact and bobbing up-and-down excessively in his downswing action.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 11, 2013 2:01:01 GMT -5
Jeff,
I cannot agree to you as regards Snedeker's release. There are slap-hinge elements very easily visible in a slo-mo. His wrists start to lose angles just after the separation and prior to swivelling. I think your negativity towards slap-hinge and Cotton's terms blinds your understanding of these. Again, slap-hinge release does not mean losing angles before contact. It means more not holding them after separation (push) and not letting swivel happen early (crossover) if we are just to talk about what happens exactly after separation.
Last but not least, I agree with you 100% as regards your comments concerning talent, which is a inmeasurable value. More talented guys with superb timing simnply are able to play great even with swing faults. Less talented guys would rather have a biomechanically superb action. It was like this in Hogan's times, it is still now and will be forever.
Cheers
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 11, 2013 9:39:46 GMT -5
I see lots of timing in BS's swing. The wrist angles are declining at a very rapid rate into impact and his superb timing, much like Luke Donald, overcomes this fault. He is very average in legnth off the tee despite being a pretty good sized guy.
He has a very good short game and like Steve Stricker/Luke Donald is one of the elite putters in the world.
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Post by bullet on Feb 11, 2013 9:50:02 GMT -5
Hogan's head moved around a lot , but then he smacked the ball with authority . Sned has the hips of an old woman and waves at the ball like a girl . Rock hits it like a girl as well , but then I've seen it many times in person , forget the real truth
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dhc1
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Post by dhc1 on Feb 11, 2013 10:06:52 GMT -5
Greg & Jeff,
Why do players who are timing dependent strike their long-irons better than drive-holders? Jeffy stated that its because DH's lack of distance control overweighs their faster closure rate but i still don't know why they would be less accurate.
Also, Greg, using Rich's statistics, BS adjusted performance on the par 3s indicate that its not his short game (29th) that puts him in the top decile (13th), it appears that its his ability to ballstrike well.
As a matter of opinion, i think that to be labelled an excellent ballstriker, one must be able to both drive well and hit long irons/hybrids/fairway woods, with a preference for long irons/hybrids/fairway woods where one has to control distance as well as left/right dispersion.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 10:51:36 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-: " There are slap-hinge elements very easily visible in a slo-mo. His wrists start to lose angles just after the separation and prior to swivelling." You are wrong! You are making a mistake by looking at slow-motion videos and thinking that a rapid straightening of the right wrist through impact implies a rapid bending of the left wrist at the same time - and that defines a slap hinge release action. However, BS doesn't bend his left wrist post-impact as occurs in a slap hinge release action. Here are capture images from the swing video that you posted. Image 1 is at impact and he has a FLW. Image 2 is at P7.1 and he still has a FLW and a clubface that is still facing the target. Image 3 is at P7.2 and he still has a FLW despite a straightening right wrist. He is starting to roll his FLW counterclockwise at this time point. Image 4 is at P7.4 and he still has a FLW despite a straightened right wrist. The fact that he can straighten his right wrist without bending his left wrist is due to the fact that he is rolling his FLW counterclockwise at this time point (due to the biomechanics that underlie his full-roll hand release action). Image 5 is at P8.5 and he is maintaining a FLW during his finish swivel action. In other words, BS maintains a FLW during his entire followthrough action and there is therefore no evidence of any slap hinge action. It is a common mistake to think that a straightening right wrist through impact (between P7 and P7.2) implies a bending left wrist. It is also important to note that BS runs-out-of-right arm in his late downswing and that causes his right wrist to be slightly straighter than usual at impact, and that also explains why it will continue to straighten more after impact. However, that's of no importance in a TGM swinging action where the release of PA#4 is primarily responsible for the forward motion of the FLW/intact LAFW through impact - and BS maintains a FLW/intact LAFW to just beyond the end of the immediate impact zone, which ends at P7.1. If a golfer maintains an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the entire immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1) then that defines a DH-release action (in my opinion). Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 11, 2013 10:59:33 GMT -5
Greg & Jeff, Why do players who are timing dependent strike their long-irons better than drive-holders? Jeffy stated that its because DH's lack of distance control overweighs their faster closure rate but i still don't know why they would be less accurate. Also, Greg, using Rich's statistics, BS adjusted performance on the par 3s indicate that its not his short game (29th) that puts him in the top decile (13th), it appears that its his ability to ballstrike well. As a matter of opinion, i think that to be labelled an excellent ballstriker, one must be able to both drive well and hit long irons/hybrids/fairway woods, with a preference for long irons/hybrids/fairway woods where one has to control distance as well as left/right dispersion. I believe one can have great talent and overcome deficencies, by any measure Phil Mickelson is a great ball striker, though wild off the tee he has been one of the longest players, and one of the better long iron players of his generation. I would not copy his mechanics though if I could pick which mechanics I would copy and reproduce.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 11:08:02 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I see lots of timing in BS's swing. The wrist angles are declining at a very rapid rate into impact and his superb timing, much like Luke Donald, overcomes this fault."
I can see no evidence that his wrist angles are declining at a rapid rate into impact. He maintains a FLW all the way from P4 to well beyond impact. I think that you may be making the common mistake of looking at the change in the right wrist angle during his downswing - which only reflects whether a golfer runs-out-of-right arm (or doesn't). BS also uses a sweep release action and that causes him to release PA#2 earlier, and if that represents what you really mean by the phrase "losing his wrist angles" then I obviously agree - but he still maintains a FLW because the release of PA#2 occurs within the plane of the LAFW. Also, a sweep release doesn't require more timing than a random release action. In fact, one could rationally argue that the later the release of PA#2, then the more one has to precisely time the PA#2 release action - which means that a golfer who uses a late snap release action requires more exquisite timing than a golfer who uses a sweep release action.
Jeff.
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dhc1
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Post by dhc1 on Feb 11, 2013 11:13:01 GMT -5
Greg & Jeff, Why do players who are timing dependent strike their long-irons better than drive-holders? Jeffy stated that its because DH's lack of distance control overweighs their faster closure rate but i still don't know why they would be less accurate. Also, Greg, using Rich's statistics, BS adjusted performance on the par 3s indicate that its not his short game (29th) that puts him in the top decile (13th), it appears that its his ability to ballstrike well. As a matter of opinion, i think that to be labelled an excellent ballstriker, one must be able to both drive well and hit long irons/hybrids/fairway woods, with a preference for long irons/hybrids/fairway woods where one has to control distance as well as left/right dispersion. I believe one can have great talent and overcome deficencies, by any measure Phil Mickelson is a great ball striker, though wild off the tee he has been one of the longest players, and one of the better long iron players of his generation. I would not copy his mechanics though if I could pick which mechanics I would copy and reproduce. Thanks for the reply. What are the mechanics that you would copy to make yourself a great long-iron striker? It doesn't appear to be DH as their stats are sub-par as compared to non-DH (unless powering down a DH swing is the best technique). I can't believe that technique is important for drivers but athleticism is the key factor for danger zone shots. i am having a hard time understanding why swings that appear to be timing dependent are statistically superior to those that aren't.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 11:13:35 GMT -5
Bullet,
You wrote-: "Sned has the hips of an old woman and waves at the ball like a girl . Rock hits it like a girl as well , but then I've seen it many times in person , forget the real truth."
I don't really know what you mean by the phrase "girlie" but I do know that both RR and BS are capable of winning tour competitions with their "girlie" swing actions - even in the presence of power hitters like Bubba Watson, JB Holmes and Dustin Johnson.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 11, 2013 11:20:34 GMT -5
I believe one can have great talent and overcome deficencies, by any measure Phil Mickelson is a great ball striker, though wild off the tee he has been one of the longest players, and one of the better long iron players of his generation. I would not copy his mechanics though if I could pick which mechanics I would copy and reproduce. Thanks for the reply. What are the mechanics that you would copy to make yourself a great long-iron striker? It doesn't appear to be DH as their stats are sub-par as compared to non-DH (unless powering down a DH swing is the best technique). I can't believe that technique is important for drivers but athleticism is the key factor for danger zone shots. i am having a hard time understanding why swings that appear to be timing dependent are statistically superior to those that aren't. I believe the best long iron players can control the rate of closure, how fast the club face is closing down in the impact zone. These players include David Duval, Lee Travino, and Ben Hogan.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 11:25:05 GMT -5
dhc1, You wrote-: "Why do players who are timing dependent strike their long-irons better than drive-holders?" I think that you are making the mistake of thinking that non-DHers strike their irons better than DHers. I think that most PGA tour golfers are DHers when hitting their short irons. That explains why Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods are such great competitors - they use a very stable DHer release action when hitting their short irons. Look at how stable PM maintains his lead wrist through impact when hitting a full swing flop shot. The same applies to Tiger Woods hitting a short iron They both maintain a FLW/intact LAFW to well beyond the P7.2 position. Jeff.
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dhc1
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Post by dhc1 on Feb 11, 2013 11:28:58 GMT -5
thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand the DH on short iron, but am most interested in long-irons accuracy. there has been a lot of very specific analysis on elite drivers (bubba, gainey, Jamie S) but i'd like to see the same for long irons b/c the swings of the elite drivers aren't elite for long-irons.
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