Hogan only needed one right forearm

[utahgolfer]

Here is a video from Augusta golf where the instructor provides his interpretation on Hogan’s comment of wishing he had three right hands.



I believe the video provides a logical conclusion that Hogan did not apply any right hand force beyond what the left hand could handle from p4 to p7.2. The evidence he highlights is the fact that Hogan’s right wrist remains fully extended (dorsiflexed) this entire time with no right-hand promoting wrist flipping or rolling until after impact. The left wrist remains intact, clearly indicating the left arm’s dominant role during the downswing.

This is impressive to see, but what is equally impressive is the anti-Malaska move beginning at 2:10 of this video. Hogan’s right hand definitely doesn’t over-power the left hand, but it is not just being a passive observer either. Look how the right hand seeks to point skyward as much as possible during his downswing. To do this Hogan’s right forearm is likely applying a significant supination force to keep the right palm from rolling over. This right forearm supination force also keeps his left forearm and left arm in check, preventing any early left forearm supination and left arm external rotation. This results is an anti-Malaska move as the hands and club move perfectly down the inclined plane with no premature tipping of the club shaft or OTT issue.

This illustrates a paradoxical aspect of the golf swing, completely opposite of what a golfer would expect. Wouldn’t every golfer think to do the opposite and pronate the right forearm during the downswing, to make sure to square the club face into the ball at impact?

In reality, the body must swing the opposite of what seems logical. Right forearm pronation is not active; rather, right forearm supination is active. This makes it much easier to 1) keep the right palm from facing the target prematurely, 2) to keep the right wrist extended as long as possible, and 3) to keep left arm and club shaft on the inclined plane throughout the downswing.

So, the right forearm turns out to be vital in controlling the right hand during the downswing. And, it is certainly silly to wish for three right hands when what is really important is the force from right forearm supination, and its promotion of the anti-Malaska move.

Of course, I didn’t figure this out on my own. Jeff Mann is the golf guru genius who has dug this insight out of the dirt!

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Another way of thinking about the "three right hands" concept is the "idea" that one can throw as hard as one likes with the right arm through impact as long as i) the right arm throw motion is equivalent to a stone-skipping action (underhand pitching action) where the ii) right palm is thrown against PP#1 of the left hand, which continuously has a slightly bowed left wrist, and where the right hand throw motion (while retaining a bent right wrist) moves the "left arm/left hand/clubshaft" targetwards through impact as an intact LAFW structure in a drive-holding manner. As Hogan stated, the left wrist/hand must lead the parade as it moves targetwards through impact and the right hand must never overpower the leading hand in either a flipping or rolling manner. An active right forearm supinatory action is needed between P4 and P5.5 to support the intact LFFW's on-plane motion and to prevent "tumbling" the shaft over-the-plane - and that represents the "anti-Malaska move".

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff, thanks for your comment. I guess it would be possible to add some right hand force from p6 to p7 (impact), but it involves such a short amount of time, it would have to be timed perfectly, and it would need to not disrupt his slightly bowed left wrist. My guess is that Hogan only "wished" he had the time, timing, and stability of the left wrist to apply the force of three right hands, but knew it was only a wish. Of course, this assumes he was a mere mortal.

Does a right hand hitter use a pitched elbow, with right forearm supination force, from p4 to p5.5? To me, the right forearm supination maneuver, makes the right hand powerless from p4 to p5.5, so I wondered how and when a "hitter" applies right arm force?

Also, doesn't the right forearm supination maneuver help to shallow the club shaft and keep the club face from rotating CCW prematurely. Sure makes any reverse motorcycle move or left wrist bowing from p4 to p5.5 a wrongheaded idea, as I'm sure you agree.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "To me, the right forearm supination maneuver, makes the right hand powerless from p4 to p5.5, so I wondered how and when a "hitter" applies right arm force?"

I do not understand why you believe that right forearm supination makes the right hand powerless from P4 => P5.5. Think of two right arm throwers - one using a side-arm throwing motion with a pitch elbow action and another using an overhand right arm throwing motion with a punch elbow action, where both use the swing power power-unloading sequence of PA#5 => PA#1. I know of no reason why one throwing pattern should generate more throwing power than the other.

In TGM terms, a TGM hitter uses more of a punch elbow motion than a pitch elbow motion.

You also wrote-: "Also, doesn't the right forearm supination maneuver help to shallow the club shaft and keep the club face from rotating CCW prematurely. Sure makes any reverse motorcycle move or left wrist bowing from p4 to p5.5 a wrongheaded idea, as I'm sure you agree."

A right forearm supinatory motion is used in a clubshaft shallowing action. However, it does not prevent the clubface from rotating closed if the golfer also uses a reverse motorcycle move due to the use of twistaway maneuver and it also does not prevent the clubface closing phenomenon seen in golfers who use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" maneuver (like Ben Hogan).

Note that Hogan's clubface is closing (relative to the clubhead arc) between P5.5 => P6.2 - even though his right forearm still remains significantly supinated.

Although I personally favor an intact LFFW swing technique combined with a clubshaft shallowing action (as seen in Henrik Stenon's swing), I think that it perfectly acceptable to use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique (as seen in Hogan's swing) - and both swing techniques involve increasing right forearm supination between P4 => P5.5.

Jon Rahm uses the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique plus an element of a twistaway maneuver (reverse motorcyle move) during his downswing action and I find his golf swing action perfectly acceptable.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff,

I wrote: "To me, the right forearm supination maneuver, makes the right hand powerless from p4 to p5.5, so I wondered how and when a "hitter" applies right arm force?"

You wrote: I do not understand why you believe that right forearm supination makes the right hand powerless from P4 => P5.5. Think of two right arm throwers - one using a side-arm throwing motion with a pitch elbow action and another using an overhand right arm throwing motion with a punch elbow action, where both use the swing power power-unloading sequence of PA#5 => PA#1. I know of no reason why one throwing pattern should generate more throwing power than the other.

To me, the right hand will produce more overall force to the club or the ball, when most of the right hand is facing the target. During a golf "swingers motion", between p4 and p5.5, the right hand points more skyward and only begins to face the target after p6. Of course, most of the power for a swinger is generated from dominant left arm motion from p4 to p5.5, but the right hand could apply some force to pp#1 during this time. However, after p6, much more right hand force could be applied below pp#1, since the right hand more directly faces the target.

When Hogan says he wishes he had 3 right hands, it seems like he would have wanted to use all of his right hand after p6 (pp#3), and not just press on pp#1, don't you think?

A sidearm baseball throw is a bit different than the golf swing since the right hand will face the the target sooner, and therefore apply more direct force toward its target sooner. However, the overhand throw would seem to allow even more time for the right palm to face the target and generate more speed. I would guess the fastest pitchers are those who use more of an overhand throwing motion, although side arm throwers can still throw the ball fast.

The hitters, based on what you said, use a punch elbow, which means they would generate force mostly from the "piston effect" of the right arm, correct?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "To me, the right hand will produce more overall force to the club or the ball, when most of the right hand is facing the target."

I don't understand that opinion. For example, if a right arm swinger powers the golf swing with the sequential release of PA#5 => PA#1, then the amount of swing power generated would be the same if the golfer adopted a neutral right hand grip (where the right palm faces the target at impact) rather than a strong right hand grip (where the right palm faces the sky at impact and where the ulnar border of the right hand faces the target at impact).

The same concept applies to a TGM swinging action (left arm swinging action) - where swing power is generated by the sequential release of PA#4 => PA#2, and where adopting a neutral left hand grip does not result in greater swing power than adopting a very strong left hand grip.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff,

Good point, but that seems to be a different topic. An important concept is that the right hand is not a major power accumulator for a hitter, rather the right arm is the power accumulator, with power only transmitted through the right hand. Correct? If the right hand were a power accumulator, then I think you would want the right palm facing the target. If one wanted to paddle whack a ball with the right hand (via a right wrist release), I bet they would use a palm facing right hand, and not a sideways palm. But, this is moot in the golf swing, with a neutral or strong grip because the right hand is not a major power accumulator. Also, a strong grip is defined by the left hand, not the right hand, per se. Doesn't Sadlowski have a strong left hand grip, yet position his right hand more neutral (palm facing the target)?

And, what about Hogan, wouldn't you speculate he wanted to use his entire right hand at impact, not just push through pp#1?

UG

[utahgolfer]

PS: congrats on your 4,000th post!!

[dubiousgolfer]

UG/Dr Mann

Imho , for a swinger, if there is any forward shaft bend (normally around P6), the right hand cannot be creating any clubhead speed from a 'clubshaft angular velocity' perspective (ie. for long clubs 5-iron to Driver).

I suppose a swinger could create extra clubhead speed by a very active muscular right forearm pronation with a large PA#3 angle from around P6.5 (ie. the golfer would need very strong forearm muscles).

From a physics perspective , only a torque (or 'Moment of Force') can cause rotation, therefore, for a hitter, I don't understand how the right hand can create any extra clubhead rotational speed unless it applies an 'active torque' at the grip end (before any forward shaft bend appears).

Whatever Ben Hogan meant about 3 right hands is a puzzle and its a shame no-one bothered to clarify what he meant before he died (maybe it was a muscular right arm pronatory PA3 release, we will never know).

DG

[syllogist]

Hi DG,

To understand "As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands," one needs to consider it in the context of the paragraph in which it appears.
In that paragraph, Hogan explained that, at impact, the back of the left hand faces the target and the left wrist bone is raised.  He wrote that if the left hand is in this position, the left hand will not interrupt the speed at which the clubhead travels and that there would be NO DANGER THAT THE RIGHT HAND WILL OVERPOWER THE LEFT AND TWIST THE CLUB OVER.

Hogan believed that the power sequence was hips, upper body, arms, then hands (wrists).  Since the right hand would not present such danger given the impact position of the left hand, then even having three right hands (the application of more power without loss of control), would not cause the dreaded hook.

S

[dubiousgolfer]

May 12, 2020 6:54:32 GMT -5 syllogist said:

Hi DG,

To understand "As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands," one needs to consider it in the context of the paragraph in which it appears.
In that paragraph, Hogan explained that, at impact, the back of the left hand faces the target and the left wrist bone is raised.  He wrote that if the left hand is in this position, the left hand will not interrupt the speed at which the clubhead travels and that there would be NO DANGER THAT THE RIGHT HAND WILL OVERPOWER THE LEFT AND TWIST THE CLUB OVER.

Hogan believed that the power sequence was hips, upper body, arms, then hands (wrists).  Since the right hand would not present such danger given the impact position of the left hand, then even having three right hands (the application of more power without loss of control), would not cause the dreaded hook.

S

Hi S

I suspect it made sense to BH and others at the time , but we know now that one cannot add more power through impact by trying to push harder with the right hand . There is not enough time for any action via the hands at the grip end to effect the clubhead through impact period (0.0004 second). Further, any increase in clubhead angular velocity via the hands is made less likely due to the forward shaft bend in the club, which means there is negative torque being applied via the hands.

I can suspect however that a continuing effort to push with the right arm/hand can act as a brace for a flat (or GFLW) left wrist ( with intact LAFW)  through impact (when clubhead speed is reduced by a third) and assist a Drive-Hold hand release action. 

I'm unsure whether PP1 pressure can assist a DH hand release action 'at/through' impact when a golfer has a neutral grip but I can 'imagine' PP3 pressure assisting with other pressure points/forces in the right hand (but no-one can prove anything about 'specific'  forces/pressure points being applied within areas/fingers of each hand).

The reason I have problems understanding PP1 being helpful for a DH hand release action (with a neutral grip) is because it would be applied in a direction perpendicular to the ball-target line as the club approached impact (ie. towards the golfer as the right forearm pronated from P6.5)

DG

[dubiousgolfer]

May 11, 2020 14:39:18 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

UG,

You wrote-: "To me, the right forearm supination maneuver, makes the right hand powerless from p4 to p5.5, so I wondered how and when a "hitter" applies right arm force?"

I do not understand why you believe that right forearm supination makes the right hand powerless from P4 => P5.5. Think of two right arm throwers - one using a side-arm throwing motion with a pitch elbow action and another using an overhand right arm throwing motion with a punch elbow action, where both use the swing power power-unloading sequence of PA#5 => PA#1. I know of no reason why one throwing pattern should generate more throwing power than the other.

In TGM terms, a TGM hitter uses more of a punch elbow motion than a pitch elbow motion.

You also wrote-: "Also, doesn't the right forearm supination maneuver help to shallow the club shaft and keep the club face from rotating CCW prematurely. Sure makes any reverse motorcycle move or left wrist bowing from p4 to p5.5 a wrongheaded idea, as I'm sure you agree."

A right forearm supinatory motion is used in a clubshaft shallowing action. However, it does not prevent the clubface from rotating closed if the golfer also uses a reverse motorcycle move due to the use of twistaway maneuver and it also does not prevent the clubface closing phenomenon seen in golfers who use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" maneuver (like Ben Hogan).

Note that Hogan's clubface is closing (relative to the clubhead arc) between P5.5 => P6.2 - even though his right forearm still remains significantly supinated.

Although I personally favor an intact LFFW swing technique combined with a clubshaft shallowing action (as seen in Henrik Stenon's swing), I think that it perfectly acceptable to use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique (as seen in Hogan's swing) - and both swing techniques involve increasing right forearm supination between P4 => P5.5.

Jon Rahm uses the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique plus an element of a twistaway maneuver (reverse motorcyle move) during his downswing action and I find his golf swing action perfectly acceptable.

Jeff.

Dr Mann 

Am I correct in assuming that BH did not use an intact LFFW technique because of his cupped lead wrist by P5.5?

He then used the  "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" as shown in the .gif images. But won't the palmar flexion tend to open the clubface relative to the ball-target line as the left wrist ulnar deviates?

Was his right forearm frankly supinated in the late downswing and did he use right wrist circumduction?  Was BH's  right wrist flexion and ulnar deviating approaching impact and wouldn't that biomechanical action tend to cause a clockwise rotation of the wrist , which in turn would tend to open the clubface approaching impact?

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Oct 18, 2021 8:55:59 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

May 11, 2020 14:39:18 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

UG,

You wrote-: "To me, the right forearm supination maneuver, makes the right hand powerless from p4 to p5.5, so I wondered how and when a "hitter" applies right arm force?"

I do not understand why you believe that right forearm supination makes the right hand powerless from P4 => P5.5. Think of two right arm throwers - one using a side-arm throwing motion with a pitch elbow action and another using an overhand right arm throwing motion with a punch elbow action, where both use the swing power power-unloading sequence of PA#5 => PA#1. I know of no reason why one throwing pattern should generate more throwing power than the other.

In TGM terms, a TGM hitter uses more of a punch elbow motion than a pitch elbow motion.

You also wrote-: "Also, doesn't the right forearm supination maneuver help to shallow the club shaft and keep the club face from rotating CCW prematurely. Sure makes any reverse motorcycle move or left wrist bowing from p4 to p5.5 a wrongheaded idea, as I'm sure you agree."

A right forearm supinatory motion is used in a clubshaft shallowing action. However, it does not prevent the clubface from rotating closed if the golfer also uses a reverse motorcycle move due to the use of twistaway maneuver and it also does not prevent the clubface closing phenomenon seen in golfers who use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" maneuver (like Ben Hogan).

Note that Hogan's clubface is closing (relative to the clubhead arc) between P5.5 => P6.2 - even though his right forearm still remains significantly supinated.

Although I personally favor an intact LFFW swing technique combined with a clubshaft shallowing action (as seen in Henrik Stenon's swing), I think that it perfectly acceptable to use the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique (as seen in Hogan's swing) - and both swing techniques involve increasing right forearm supination between P4 => P5.5.

Jon Rahm uses the "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" swing technique plus an element of a twistaway maneuver (reverse motorcyle move) during his downswing action and I find his golf swing action perfectly acceptable.

Jeff.

Dr Mann 

Am I correct in assuming that BH did not use an intact LFFW technique because of his cupped lead wrist by P5.5?

He then used the  "combined early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" as shown in the .gif images. But won't the palmar flexion tend to open the clubface relative to the ball-target line as the left wrist ulnar deviates?

Was his right forearm frankly supinated in the late downswing and did he use right wrist circumduction?  Was BH's  right wrist flexion and ulnar deviating approaching impact and wouldn't that biomechanical action tend to cause a clockwise rotation of the wrist , which in turn would tend to open the clubface approaching impact?

DG

Having a cupped lead wrist between P4 => P6 does disrupt an intact LFFW alignment, but not necessarily by very much if the clubshaft is simultaneously shallowed to a shallower plane by P6.

Hogan closed the clubface relative to his clubhead path when he performed his "early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" maneuver between P5.5 => P6.2 because his lead wrist was radially deviated during that time period. However, having a palmar flexed lead wrist between P6.2 => P7 does open the clubface relative to the ball-target line because it angles the clubshaft back away from the target, so he still needed to use a lot of lead forearm supination during his PA#3 release action to get a square clubface by impact.

Here is an image of Hogan at impact.

Note that his lead wrist is not really bowed in images 1 and 2 and it is only significantly bowed in image 3. Note that he seemingly required slightly more lead wrist supination to get a square clubface at impact when his lead wrist was more bowed. Also, note that the additional amount of lead forearm supination allows him to not have too much forward shaft lean (due to a bowed lead wrist alignment) at impact in image 3, and it is similar in amount to images 1 and 2.

Note that his right forearm is supinated in all 3 images. However, the degree of right forearm supination near impact may be slightly less than "average" because he used a weak trail hand grip. It is likely that he did not perform a clockwise trail wrist circumductory motion when he partially straightened his trail wrist near impact because he used a weak trail hand grip. I think that a clockwise trail wrist circumductory roll motion mainly happens in golfers who use a neutral => strong trail hand grip.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks Dr Mann

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Another comment regarding your bold-highlighted statement below.

You stated-: "Was BH's right wrist flexion and ulnar deviating approaching impact and wouldn't that biomechanical action tend to cause a clockwise rotation of the wrist , which in turn would tend to open the clubface approaching impact?"

I don't think that any clockwise trail wrist circumductory roll motion happening in the later downswing opens the clubface if the golfer uses a TGM (lead arm) swinging action combined with an intact LFFW technique and a PA#3 release action. It is the counterclockwise roll motion of the lead hand that controls the clubface during the PA#3 release action. The clockwise roll motion of the trail palm that happens secondary to trail wrist circumduction only controls the position of the right palm during the PA#3 release action and it prevents the trail palm from rolling too much over the club handle during a PA#3 release action.

Consider an example - featuring Justin Thomas.

JT uses a weak lead hand grip so he must roll his lead palm a lot counterclockwise between P6.5 (image 2) and impact (image 3) in order to get a square clubface by impact.

JT uses a strong trail hand grip, which means that his trail palm is more under the club handle during his PA#3 release action and also during his DH-hand release action (between image 3 => image 4). Clockwise trail wrist circumductory roll motion happening during his partial trail wrist straightening action allows his trail palm to remain more under the club handle - even when the club handle is rotating counterclockwise during his lead forearm's PA#3 release action.

Jeff.