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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 12, 2011 10:14:33 GMT -5
Consider this 3jack forum thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2081&page=1This is one issue where I sympathize with BM - because I am an overt opponent of the S&T swing style, which I perceive to be back-unfriendly. I noted that defenders of the S&T swing are trying to point out similarities between their S&T swing style and the swings of other golfers. For example, note that they posted videos of golfers who take their hands deep, and of golfers who keep their arms closely connected to their rotating torso (eg. Jonathan Byrd, AS, CS, LO, MK). However, none of those golfers has a pelvic pivot action like Jim Waldron - the characteristic "butt-tuck-under-the spine" pelvic thrust action that ends in a reverse C finish position. Compare Jim Waldron's pelvic motion to the pelvic motion of Charles Schwartzel and Adam Scott. Its totally different! Jim Waldron Charles Schwartzel Adam Scott Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 11:15:08 GMT -5
I know Jim, have played with Jim...........he is one of the more impressive ball strikers for a amateur I have been around. Hits his driving 300+ just about every swing.
If the goal is to get the ball in the hole I would take his move any day of the week.
I think Jim over does the finish, if he did not it would look a lot like some of the other players like Byrd.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 12, 2011 11:43:55 GMT -5
Greg,
I am not questioning the ball-striking ability of Jim Waldron. His swing looks superb, and it looks as good (if not better) than Dan C's swing. I only think that one can have an equally good quality swing using a rightwards-centralised swing action (ala Schwartzel, Oosthuizen, J Day, A Scott, D Johnson) that is more lower back-friendly.
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Apr 12, 2011 12:12:57 GMT -5
I don't think Manzella perceives S&T as back unfriendly.
I also don't think Manzella is just bashing S&T, I think it's quite obvious he's bashing MORAD as well.
"I think that this "arms super-glued to the upper torso, don't break an egg under the right foot on the backswing, cut off finish GOLF PATTERN" was old as a revolution on a couple of fronts. Not just S&T."
Again, it's not that I care if Manzella will ever like MORAD (or S&T), but I would like my forum to be a place where we can see all different viewpoints and thus we can accurately depict how those different swing theories and philosophies address different parts in the golf swing.
I'm not sure how anybody could look at Mike McNary's swing or Mac O'Grady's swing and view than as 'non-dynamic.'
3JACK
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Post by candygram on Apr 12, 2011 12:14:00 GMT -5
I don't know why people bother to bash S&T anymore, it has been around for years and hasn't produced much in the way of results. Not a single good driver and few good iron players, its supposed strength.
BTW, I think the back thing is over-rated. Naysayers have been saying that for years but I'm not aware of any S&Tilter that has a chronic bad back or abandoned it because it was back unfriendly. The problem is it is an "accuracy over power" swing that doesn't deliver the accuracy.
Waldron sure looks strong, but I bet he could hit it a lot further with good accuracy with another method. Too many guys on tour are already doing it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 12, 2011 12:16:02 GMT -5
3jack,
I definitely think that Mike's MORAD swing and the S&T swing are both dynamic. However, I think that Mike's swing is more back-friendly.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 12:35:20 GMT -5
Greg, I am not questioning the ball-striking ability of Jim Waldron. His swing looks superb, and it looks as good (if not better) than Dan C's swing. I only think that one can have an equally good quality swing using a rightwards-centralised swing action (ala Schwartzel, Oosthuizen, J Day, A Scott, D Johnson) that is more lower back-friendly. Jeff. I am always going to side with the "there are many ways to skin a cat" mentality in regards to the golf swing. I mentioned how well he hits it, and how far, because there is this mention how you can't it hit far with that swing, BM certainly stated that at RJ's site by saying how this years master winner had an upright, relatively unconnected swing and hit it a long way.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 12:38:00 GMT -5
I don't know why people bother to bash S&T anymore, it has been around for years and hasn't produced much in the way of results. Not a single good driver and few good iron players, its supposed strength. BTW, I think the back thing is over-rated. Naysayers have been saying that for years but I'm not aware of any S&Tilter that has a chronic bad back or abandoned it because it was back unfriendly. The problem is it is an "accuracy over power" swing that doesn't deliver the accuracy. Waldron sure looks strong, but I bet he could hit it a lot further with good accuracy with another method. Too many guys on tour are already doing it. he hits AS FAR as his old method. I know this because I have seen it before and after. This is not conjecture based off viewing a video, I know him personally from when I first saw him hit balls in I think late of 09.
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Post by richie3jack on Apr 12, 2011 13:11:36 GMT -5
I don't know why people bother to bash S&T anymore, it has been around for years and hasn't produced much in the way of results. Not a single good driver and few good iron players, its supposed strength. One of the statistics I'm working on is trying to better depict driving effectiveness. I'm working on a formula that factors in the following - Driving Distance
- Fwy % Hit
- Distance from Edge of Fwy (on drives that missed fwy)
Still tinkering with a formula, but I think my formula is pretty close here. Here's the 2010 standings based off this formula. 1…Joe Durant 2…Charles Warren 3…Graham DeLaet 4…Hunter Mahan 5…Tom Gillis 6…Robert Garrigus 7…Kenny Perry 8…Boo Weekley 9…Ryan Moore 10…Jay Williamson 11…Steve Elkington 12…Brett Wetterich 13…David Toms 14…John Rollins 15…Rory McIlroy 16…J.J. Henry 17…John Merrick 18…Jarrod Lyle 19…Nick Watney 20…Heath Slocum 21…D.J. Trahan 22…Will MacKenzie 23…Bo Van Pelt 24…Davis Love III 25…Zach Johnson 26…Scott McCarron 27…Omar Uresti 28…Blake Adams 29…Kevin Streelman 30…John Senden 31…Cliff Kresge 32…Charley Hoffman 33…Billy Mayfair 34…Mathias Gronberg 35…Bubba Watson 36…Jason Dufner 37…Jim Furyk 38…Chad Campbell 39…Ben Crane 40…Josh Teater 41…Bill Haas 42…Matt Kuchar 43…Robert Allenby 44…Vaughn Taylor 45…Chris Couch 46…Kevin Sutherland 47…Lucas Glover 48…Steve Stricker 49…Dustin Johnson 50…Aron Price 51…Adam Scott 52…Mathew Goggin 53…Paul Stankowski 54…Y.E. Yang 55…Rickie Fowler 56…Dean Wilson 57…Tim Clark 58…Mark Wilson 59…Jerry Kelly 60…K.J. Choi 61…Kris Blanks 62…Troy Matteson 63…Garrett Willis 64…Sean O'Hair 65…Kevin Stadler 66…Skip Kendall 67…Pat Perez 68…Stewart Cink 69…Chris DiMarco 70…Justin Leonard 71…James Nitties 72…Chris Riley 73…Stephen Ames 74…Brian Davis 75…Martin Laird 76…Retief Goosen 77…Rod Pampling 78…Matt Every 79…Garth Mulroy 80…John Mallinger 81…Brendon de Jonge 82…Chris Tidland 83…Jeff Maggert 84…Jason Day 85…Roger Tambellini 86…Scott Verplank 87…Ben Curtis 88…Cameron Percy 89…Michael Letzig 90…Sergio Garcia 91…Tom Pernice, Jr. 92…Vijay Singh 93…Craig Bowden 94…Richard S. Johnson 95…Paul Casey 96…Nicholas Thompson 97…Alex Prugh 98…Justin Rose 99…Jonathan Byrd 100…Jason Bohn 101…Andrew McLardy 102…Camilo Villegas 103…Rocco Mediate 104…Paul Goydos 105…Spencer Levin 106…D.A. Points 107…Jeff Gove 108…Greg Owen 109…John Daly 110…J.B. Holmes 111…Cameron Tringale 112…Steve Marino 113…Woody Austin 114…Brian Gay 115…Ryan Palmer 116…Chris Wilson 117…Jeff Quinney 118…Bill Lunde 119…Henrik Bjornstad 120…Angel Cabrera 121…Cameron Beckman 122…Chris Stroud 123…Alex Cejka 124…Tim Petrovic 125…Brent Delahoussaye 126…Brian Stuard 127…Rory Sabbatini 128…Steve Wheatcroft 129…Ted Purdy 130…Trevor Immelman 131…Marc Leishman 132…J.P. Hayes 133…Ian Poulter 134…Ernie Els 135…Briny Baird 136…Aaron Baddeley 137…Shaun Micheel 138…Kevin Na 139…Steve Flesch 140…Charlie Wi 141…Justin Bolli 142…Jeff Overton 143…James Driscoll 144…Matt Bettencourt 145…Stuart Appleby 146…Carl Pettersson 147…Jeev Milkha Singh 148…Steve Lowery 149…Webb Simpson 150…Michael Sim 151…Bob Estes 152…Michael Connell 153…Charles Howell III 154…Troy Merritt 155…Fredrik Jacobson 156…Roland Thatcher 157…Lee Janzen 158…Johnson Wagner 159…Andres Romero 160…Scott Piercy 161…Brandt Snedeker 162…Mark Calcavecchia 163…Matt Jones 164…Padraig Harrington 165…Geoff Ogilvy 166…David Lutterus 167…Martin Flores 168…Tim Herron 169…George McNeill 170…Joe Ogilvie 171…Derek Lamely 172…Ricky Barnes 173…Jerod Turner 174…Bryce Molder 175…Phil Mickelson 176…Michael Bradley 177…Nathan Green 178…Ryuji Imada 179…Luke Donald 180…Kevin Johnson 181…Daniel Chopra 182…Brett Quigley 183…David Duval 184…Greg Kraft 185…Greg Chalmers 186…Chad Collins 187…Brenden Pappas 188…Vance Veazey 189…Jimmy Walker 190…Rich Barcelo 191…Brad Faxon 192…Mike Weir As you can see, there's no overall type of player that stands out. Long hitters are not really favored or hurt by this formula and the same with short, but accurate hitters of the ball. Of the S&T players on the list: JJ Henry 16th Dean Wilson 56th Troy Matteson 62nd Bill Lunde 118th Alex Cejka 123rd Charlie Wi 140th James Driscoll (think he's S&T) 143 Brad Faxon 191st I'd have to take a look at their numbers from other seasons, but I'd consider Henry at 16th to be an excellent driver of the golf ball and Wilson and Matteson very good drivers of the ball. Lunde is about average. Cejka starts to get below average. Faxon was a mess before S&T. Iron play, I know Dean Wilson is still one of the best. Really good ballstriker overall. 3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 13:19:26 GMT -5
The biggest issue I have with SnT is I think its hard to do for the less athletic. I know SnT instructors would disagree with me but to have the hands work deep with a rotated shoulder turn, club running through the bicep, well its tough for someone like me, and I am more athletically inclined then most overweight middle aged guys. When you see a good SnT swing its usually a young, flexible individual.
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Post by candygram on Apr 12, 2011 13:25:31 GMT -5
The biggest issue I have with SnT is I think its hard to do for the less athletic. I know SnT instructors would disagree with me but to have the hands work deep with a rotated shoulder turn, club running through the bicep, well its tough for someone like me, and I am more athletically inclined then most overweight middle aged guys. When you see a good SnT swing its usually a young, flexible individual. I agree and think it is very contrived, particularly the stacking part in the backswing. Not worth all the effort was my conclusion.
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Post by candygram on Apr 12, 2011 13:35:38 GMT -5
JJ Henry has always been a good ballstriker: his 2003 stats are as good as 2010. All you can say is Benett and Plummer didn't make it worse. Also, I never thought his swing looked much like the S&T standard.
I'm not a big fan of short hitters, no matter how accurate. Dean wilson is short, 183rd this year. Matteson's stats are pretty good, but they were good in 2006. Like JJ, I don't see him listed as an early student of theirs (early being 2004).
Love the work you are doing with the stats, though. I'm looking forward to more!
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Post by candygram on Apr 12, 2011 13:41:57 GMT -5
he hits AS FAR as his old method. I know this because I have seen it before and after. This is not conjecture based off viewing a video, I know him personally from when I first saw him hit balls in I think late of 09. To be fair, I said I think he can hit farther with good accuracy with "another method", not his "old method"....Never saw the old one, obviously. Is there video of it around?
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Post by natep on Apr 12, 2011 13:56:27 GMT -5
I guess I'm the only one, but when I look at that McNary swing I'm not thinking "Wow, what a dynamic golf swing!". IMO it couldnt hardly be any less dynamic.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 14:06:18 GMT -5
he hits AS FAR as his old method. I know this because I have seen it before and after. This is not conjecture based off viewing a video, I know him personally from when I first saw him hit balls in I think late of 09. To be fair, I said I think he can hit farther with good accuracy with "another method", not his "old method"....Never saw the old one, obviously. Is there video of it around? not sure, more like and adam scott type swing if my memory serves. I am sure if it was a long drive contest he could hit it further with several other methods because he would add other power elements to the swing, I know I can when I need to, not sure where its going to go. I can easily hit a 5 iron with shawn clements swing method, I also get way under plane and have face control issues with it, but I can really kill it.
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