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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 8, 2021 10:22:49 GMT -5
Here is Brendon DeVore at Dr Kwon's research centre.
Here is Dr Kwon advising a female golfer on how to create clubhead speed with an up and down motion of the hips (if I've heard him correctly !).
Personally , I do not see much difference in what he is teaching compared to these Shawn Clement videos that I first saw in 2008 and 2009.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2021 12:15:19 GMT -5
I will first comment on this video. Brendon has a known tendency to come OTT because of a dysfunctional kinematic sequence where he starts his downswing with an upper torso rotation combined with a pulling-down motion of his arms. I agree with Dr. Kwon that the correct kinematic sequence must start with a lower body motion that secondarily moves the left shoulder socket and left arm. However, I disagree with Dr. Kwon's implication that the hands will automatically drop down from the ~TSP at P4 => functional swingplane by P6 solely as a result of an optimised body motion's effect on the lead arm. We know that if a pro golfer's functional swingplane is on the elbow plane by P6, and if the hands are on (or slightly above) the TSP at P4, that the hands are dropping downwards between P4 => P6 due to two factors - i) the active body motion that pulls the lead arm downwards, and ii) the speed of active trail upper arm adduction. Different pro golfers have different patterns. For example, Henrik Stenson, Adam Scott and Rory McIlroy steadily drop their hands down from the ~TSP at P4 to the elbow plane by P6 at a relatively constant rate, while Sergio Garcia drops his hands disproportionally fast between P4 => P5 due to an exaggerated degree of trail upper arm adduction relative to his speed of body motion.
Dr. Kwon also focuses a lot on the speed of the backswing's body/clubshaft motion and he implies that it must start with a pelvic motion that will pull the lead arm and clubshaft onto the desired "on-plane" motion by P2. However, although I also personally favor that "more simple" type of "on-plane" clubshaft motion where the backswing's and downswing's plane of clubshaft motion are very similar (eg. Tiger Woods golf swing action), many pro golfers choose to use different planes of clubshaft motion for their backswing (compared to their downswing). For example, Sam Snead and Bruce Lietzke use the reverse slot pattern where the backswing's clubshaft motion between P2 => P4 is shallower than the downswing's clubshaft motion between P4 => P6. By contrast, Lee Trevino and Matthew Wolff have a very steep clubshaft motion during the backswing's motion, and they radically shallow their clubshaft during the early-mid downswing between P4 => P6.
Then consider what Dr. Kwon opines in this video. He implies that there is a close correlation between the hand arc path between P6 => P8 and the clubshaft's motion on the functional swingplane between P6 => P8. While broadly true, one also has to factor-in the effect of different accumulator #3 angles manifested by different pro golfers near-and-at impact. So, for example, Phil Mickelson's lead arm is more outstretched between P6 => P8 while Sergio Garcia's lead arm is more vertical between P6 => P8, which means that they manifest slightly different hand arc paths during the P6 => P8 time period. Pro golfers who use a very strong lead hand grip can also have variations in their accumulator #3 angle near/at impact due to variations in their degree of lead wrist extension happening between P6 => P8. So, for example, Hunter Mahan (who uses a very strong lead hand grip) has a very different hand arc path between P6 => P8 than Ryan Palmer's hand arc path between P6 => P8 even though they both use a very strong lead hand grip - because Hunter Mahan's lead wrist is much more extended during that P6 => P8 time period.
Then consider this Dr. Kwon video.
DG - I think that it is biomechanically natural for the pelvis to manifest an up-and-down motion as it rotates during the backswing and downswing because the trail leg may variably straighten during the backswing and the lead leg should definitely straighten in the mid-late downswing. DG - I do not think that Dr. Kwon is teaching anything different/controversial. DG - I think that Shawn Clement's teaching approach is very different, because he talks about the arms/club passively falling between P4 => P6 due to gravity and he does not talk about the role/effects of the active pivot motion on lead arm motion (and therefore hand motion) between P4 => P6 or the role/effects of an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver during that same P4 => P6 time period. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 9, 2021 10:18:51 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
Yes, Dr Kwon hasn't really provided anything new in his instruction , while SC has more intuitive ideas on how golfers might try and improve their golf swings. I'm not sure SC thinks that the arms/club unit just fall due to gravity from P4-P6 but he's never explained (imho) the kinetics of the golf swing in any great detail. Although I've heard him say the 'fall' of the arms/club unit in the early downswing (but not to P6) and that the golf swing is analogous to a 'Trebuchet', the explanations are all very abstract and unscientific.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 9, 2021 11:36:42 GMT -5
Here is SC explaining the fall of the arms without going into any great detail how they assist in generating clubhead speed. The 'fall' (which I assume is just due to gravity) happens from P4-P5 , then he claims one must 'assist' the 'fall' down plane like 'pushing a kid on the swing'.
Obviously , this does not happen in the golf downswing according to the videos produced by Dr Sasho Mackenzie that show the 'In Plane Net Force/Hand Couple/Moment Of Force' .
All very unscientific instruction from SC and he is seemingly using his own personal 'feels' about what is happening in the golf swing.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2021 12:38:33 GMT -5
DG,
I agree that SC's explanations are very vague and non-specific. The analogy of "pushing a child on a swing" is a very vague mental concept, that does not explain how this action should be performed between P4 => P6 in a "real life" golf swing action.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 14, 2021 9:40:56 GMT -5
Just thought I'd post this video of Dr Kwon demonstrating his suggested pelvic movement (very similar to SC video on how to create serious speed).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 14, 2021 10:12:37 GMT -5
Just thought I'd post this video of Dr Kwon demonstrating his suggested pelvic movement (very similar to SC video on how to create serious speed). DG
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 14, 2021 11:30:22 GMT -5
Dr Mann - I thought the same too.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 15, 2021 10:02:52 GMT -5
More videos with Dr Kwon . Unless I've misinterpreted what he says in this video, he is claiming (in his opinion) that the swing drills he's devised, if done properly, will 'Perfect' the promotion of good biomechanics in generating clubhead speed.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 15, 2021 10:47:47 GMT -5
More videos with Dr Kwon . Unless I've misinterpreted what he says in this video, he is claiming (in his opinion) that the swing drills he's devised, if done properly, will 'Perfect' the promotion of good biomechanics in generating clubhead speed. DG This video does not cover much ground, but Dr. Kwon is seemingly describing a pivot-driven TGM swinging action. However, before I opine on whether I think that his golf instructional approach is truly rational, then I would like to see him provide explicit details. In particular, I would like to see him explain how he ensures that the golfer gets the kinematic sequence of the pivot motion correct with optimum amounts of torso-pelvic separation, and how he gets the motion of the arms to synchronise with the motion of the body during the downswing and followthrough. Then, I would like to see him explain how he gets the clubshaft to remain on-plane while the clubshaft is shallowing between P4 => P6; how he gets the release of PA#2 and PA#3 to be optimised; and how he prevents an excessive clubface ROC from happening through impact. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 17, 2021 19:59:15 GMT -5
Dr Kwon's perfect step drills which again is nothing new. Davis Love Jnr suggested something similar. DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 18, 2021 22:58:10 GMT -5
I watched this full video but didn't really learn much anatomically about what the body is actually doing in the golf swing but I think it contains more detail behind Dr Kwon's thinking than the 'Be Better Golf' videos. I recollect posting one of these videos before but it was Part 1 of a series of 3 videos and this one below is Part 3 concentrating on the transition phase.
DG
PS. Just looking at video part 2 and although I haven't finished yet he is repeating his same opinion:
"Upper and lower body have different roles , lower body is responsible for speed generation while upper body is mainly working on traction control"
So I'm assuming he means direction control when he mentions traction.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 20, 2021 20:32:20 GMT -5
Here is another Dr Kwon video with Brendon on the step drills .
So far , I have found old Shawn Clement videos (several published over 13 years ago) that are alarmingly similar to Dr Kwon's golf instructions.
Check out 10:32-10:54 in the above video.
Then compare what Dr Kwon said to Brendon to this SC video below (published in 2008)
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2021 0:21:46 GMT -5
DG,
There is a lot of similarity in what Dr. Kwon is teaching and what SC is teaching regarding this topic, and I would not be inclined to use the term" alarmingly", but rather "admiringly".
I agree with both of them in the sense that they both focus attention on the lower body being the force generator that must lead the pivot motion in the downswing. The two-step drill is good in the sense that it uses the lower body's rotation in the backswing to throw the arms/club onto the swingplane and it also optimally stretches the upper torso relative to the lower torso, and it also subsequently optimises the force/fluidity of the lower body rotation in the downswing when one performs the 2nd step of the two-step drill starting at P3.5.
I also like the fact that Dr. Kwon encouraged Brendon to delay the anticlockwise rotation of the upper torso during the early downswing by focusing his mind on the lower body rotation, and thereby create an optimised kinematic sequence where the pelvis leads the upper torso.
SC's teaching is more primitive/simplistic when he talks of "weight shift", but he does correctly advise a golfer to move towards the lead foot in order to optimise the pelvic motion. He calls it a "fall", but I prefer the general "idea" of dynamic motion being directed away from the target during the backswing and then towards the target during the downswing as described by Dr. Kwon.
I think that my golf instructional teaching is very similar with respect to optimising the pivot motion, but I not only describe how to optimise the pivot motion, but I go into much greater detail on how to maintain clubhead lag between P4 => P5.5 by using the combination of a "trail upper arm adduction maneuver + pitch elbow motion of the trail arm".
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Dec 22, 2021 9:08:08 GMT -5
Dr Mann
I agree that you go into much greater detail on how to maintain lag between P4=>P5.5
This is what he said in that Part 3 video with Mike Beaumont:
"All the swing components are interrelated because the later stages you see are basically the outcome of what you do in the earlier stages so it is impossible to fix one thing in the swing (of course if it is across impact, then you can set in to control the smaller factor alone). But particularly when you change something in the backswing then it effects everything that comes after that, so that's why developing a good backswing pattern is so important because the backswing sets the tone for the downswing and everything. So if you do the backswing right then you will automatically have a good transition phase and start the downswing really well. Particularly in the backswing if you work on how you start the initial phase , that is really important. When you start the backswing right with the body , then automatically you will have a speedy and an active backswing that will lead to good transition mechanics. When you have good transition mechanics then you won't have to worry about your body does in the downswing. All you have to pay attention to is direction control because the speed will automatically come."
Don't you think Dr Kwon is making assumptions that the "speed will automatically come" in the downswing? Also I don't understand what he means by 'direction control' but I am guessing that means the direction of the functional swing plane (ie. the 'Swing Plane Line').
He claims that he's noticed (especially when working with the Korean LPGA players) that his step drills also has the added benefit of less dispersion as well as increased clubhead speed. It would be nice to see the evidence published sometime in the future that shows this improvement in accuracy.
DG
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