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Post by natep on Mar 29, 2011 20:50:29 GMT -5
Cool thanks, I will check him out. i think Tomasello makes some valid points in the little I've seen of him, even though it seems he has a bad rap with the LBG guys. PS- sorry for the threadjack Rand, Im done now.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 21:00:10 GMT -5
Rand - you asked-: "I'm not quite sure what you mean by "in his actual swing." ... you don't mean he did not do what he demonstrated do you?" I do mean that he didn't do what he was demonstrating when he actually performed his full golf swing. This is his posed description photo of his "secret". Note that his right wrist has very little back bend (dorsiflexion) and that situation exaggerates his degree of left wrist cupping, which disrupts the LAFW by bending the left wrist. Here is a photo from (presumably) an actual swing. Note that his right wrist is bent back much more, and that allows the left wrist to become less cupped. He now has a GFLW, and not a bent left wrist. Note that the toe of his club in image 5 is not pointing groundwards as much as would occur if one had a bent left wrist. It is appropriately open to the clubhead arc - as occurs when a golfer has an intact LAFW. Here is an image of me at the end-backswing position. Note that the toe of my club is pointing more groundwards than Hogan's - and it is more open to the clubhead arc, and my clubface is not in-line with the back of my left forearm. That is because I have a bent left wrist (red line), which causes the club to cross the line. Hogan didn't allow his club to cross the line at his end-backswing position. Jeff.
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Post by majorminor on Mar 29, 2011 21:06:00 GMT -5
Hogan also said he didn't use it all the time, how do you know if he was employing the secret in those pics. Your making assumptions on something that you cannot substantiate with any proof of Hogan using the secret in that presumed actual swing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 21:09:29 GMT -5
Majorminor,
I presume that those photos posted by Rand were also from the Life article. Note that he even has captions under the photos stating that the "secret" was being used.
Have you ever seen a photo from a "real" life swing of Hogan's when he had a bent left wrist and a disrupted LAFW. Please post it?
Jeff.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Mar 29, 2011 21:13:49 GMT -5
Jeff,
Now take a look at the second part of the secret... moving the left thumb 1/4 inch to the left in a more weaker position. Your left hand grip is more in a neutral position. I also think that your cross the line is more a result of over turning the shoulders. I would definitely like to see more information from you on your ideas here for sure.
When this article came out EVERYBODY started trying it. Many claimed that this was NOT Hogan's real secret and that it was only a small part of it. I worked on this myself off and on in 1976-77. Couldn't get close to a consistent fade.
Rand
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Post by natep on Mar 29, 2011 21:14:27 GMT -5
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Mar 29, 2011 21:19:10 GMT -5
Majorminor, I presume that those photos posted by Rand were also from the Life article. Note that he even has captions under the photos stating that the "secret" was being used. Have you ever seen a photo from a "real" life swing of Hogan's when he had a bent left wrist and a disrupted LAFW. Please post it? Jeff. Jeff & majorminor, Those photos were of an actual swing and were in the article. Hogan did not have a disrupted LAFW and he definitely cupped the left wrist in those photos. How and to what degree is certainly open for debate. I have many other great still photos of his swing that I will scan and post for review. Rand
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 21:22:31 GMT -5
Rand,
If a golfer has a weak grip, then it will make the left wrist appear to be less cupped at the end-backswing position - if the LAFW is also intact at the end-backswing position.
I actually tend to bend my left wrist at the end-backswing because I cannot turn my shoulders enough. I therefore have a propensity (bad habit) to lift my arms upwards in my late backswing. That causes my right wrist to upcock and simultaneously lose some of its dorsiflexion, and that unfortunately pushes my left wrist into a state of dorsiflexion (left wrist bend) that disrupts my LAFW and causes my club to cross the line.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Mar 29, 2011 21:22:43 GMT -5
In the photo I just put up he appears to have little right wrist dorsiflexion, and indeed it appears that the right wrist is "cocked", a TGM no-no.
The amount of left wrist dorsiflexion is debatable.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 21:29:35 GMT -5
Natep,
Good photo!
It shows a bent left wrist and a disrupted LAFW. That causes his club to cross the line. Note also that the toe of his club is pointing more groundwards and his clubface is not inline with his left forearm.
Is that a posed photo, or a photo from a "real" swing? I have studied many images of Hogan and I can only find many similar images (as your photo) from his 1930s swing when he tended to overswing and when his club frequently crossed the line. In his later career, his club was more laid-off at the end-backswing position and he had an intact LAFW.
Jeff.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Mar 29, 2011 21:35:16 GMT -5
Jeff,
Perhaps I don't know what a "distrupted LAFW" is... could you elaborate on what you are seeing in Hogan's photos that indicate that?
Rand
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Post by natep on Mar 29, 2011 21:40:48 GMT -5
Natep, Good photo! It shows a bent left wrist and a disrupted LAFW. That causes his club to cross the line. Note also that the toe of his club is pointing more groundwards and his clubface is not inline with his left forearm. Is that a posed photo, or a photo from a "real" swing? I have studied many images of Hogan and I can only find many similar images (as your photo) from his 1930s swing when he tended to overswing and when his club frequently crossed the line. In his later career, his club was more laid-off at the end-backswing position and he had an intact LAFW. Jeff. Judging by the slight blur of the clubhead and his arms relative to resolution of the rest of his body one might guess that its a real action swing rather than a static pose. But's its pure speculation and I honestly have no clue. It also looks to me like he's letting go of the club a bit with the left hand, or opening the left hand slightly.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 21:50:45 GMT -5
Rand, If the LAFW is intact, then a golfer should have a cupped left wrist (GFLW), but the clubface should still be straight-in-line with the back of the left forearm. Here is a photo of me demonstrating an intact LAFW and a GFLW. Note that I have a GFLW, and not an anatomically FLW. The degree of cupping of my left wrist depends on my grip strength - I have a neutral/slightly strong grip, so cupping is very apparent. If I adopted a weak grip, and a GFLW, the degree of cupping would be less. Note that the clubface and clubshaft (dotted yellow line) are both in a straight line relationship with the back of my left forearm (solid yellow line) - that means that I have an intact LAFW. If I either palmar flex or dorsiflex my left wrist, the clubface/clubshaft will no longer be in a straight line relationship with my left forearm - and that represents a disrupted LAFW. Consider Natep's photo of Hogan. Note that his clubface is not straight-in-line with the back of his left forearm, and that the toe of his club is pointing more groundwards. That's a sign of a disrupted LAFW due to a very small degree of left wrist dorsiflexion. By contrast, note that Hogan has a cupped left wrist in image 1 of this next photo series, but the clubface is straight-in-line with the back of his left forearm, which means that the cupping is due to a GFLW and not due to left wrist bending. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 22:06:31 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "It also looks to me like he's letting go of the club a bit with the left hand, or opening the left hand slightly."
Good point!
That will also cause the left wrist to more easily become more bent and that will disrupt the LAFW.
I think I read somewhere that Hogan complained of that "opening hand" problem in his earlier career, and that he solved the problem by adopting a low palmar grip, rather than a finger grip.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 29, 2011 23:35:31 GMT -5
It is amazing, and instructive, to see the difference between Hogan's 1930s swing and his 1953 swing.
1930s
1953
Jeff.
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