|
Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 22:09:54 GMT -5
It has an affect on the shoulders which in turn affects the arm positioning. Anyone can do it and see that when you add side bend the arm angle changes and that affects the face angle.
I has nothing to do with a direct effect on the twistaway action itself, but since it affects the shoulder and arm angles it changes the face angle. And you can't twistaway between p6 and p7 you said so..
It's right there in the video, there is no trick to it, just angles getting changed.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 22:12:29 GMT -5
No need to go further on this.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 7, 2013 0:31:56 GMT -5
Chipitin,
Seeing that you agree that lateral bend/axis tilt has no effect of the twistaway issue, then it makes no sense to discuss it further in this thread, which is devoted to the topic of twistaway. However, I will start another thread that will allow you to explain how lateral bend/axis tilt can affect the clubface between P6 and P7 via its affect on the shoulder and arm angles.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 7, 2013 17:44:53 GMT -5
devoted to the topic of twistaway. For clarification purposes, Brian Manzella came up with the "Twistaway" maneuver to help cronic slicers change their backswing wrist action and the positions of the wrists and clubface at P4. He felt slicers cocked both wrists (double wristcock) in the backswing which lead to a P4 position of a bent left wrist and a straight right wrist and a clubhead that is toe down (wide open). He suggested the golfer in the backswing bend the right wrist back (not cock it) while bending the right elbow towards the body and "twist" the clubface "away" from the body. That would create a P4 position of the right wrist bent back and the left wrist flat or slightly bowed with the clubface matching the angle of the left wrist/arm. From that P4 position, along with the thought of maintaining the feel of the "twistaway" maneuver (hold the twist) into the downswing, the clubface will face away from them in the downswing just as it did in the backswing. The golfer would then have an impact position of a bent right wrist and a flat left wrist with a squared up clubface, instead of a straight right wrist and bent left wrist with an open clubface. Manzella felt these adjustments were the quickest way to get the golfer out of his bad positions and could possibly fix their slice by themselves, but, he also said a lot of golfers would need a proper swivel of the hands as the club travels to the finish after impact. Manzella stated, "Through impact the left wrist needs to remain flat and your right wrist bent. The clubface needs to turn toward the ground past the ball on the way to pointing toward the target. This swivel position should consist of a still flat left wrist and a "fully rolled" whole left arm" (Wedding Ring Up Alignment). My my, how Manzella's perceptions have changed.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2013 10:28:45 GMT -5
BM stated in his "slice-fixing twistaway move" recommendation that a golfer should maintain the twistaway throughout the downswing to the finish. I have stated that a golfer cannot maintain a twistaway during the late downswing when the club releases. Who is correct? Why should a golfer not be able to maintain twistaway all the way to P7, and beyond?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2013 10:59:14 GMT -5
When Hogan performed an "early supination" move as he reached the P5.5-P6 zone he had a clubface that was closed to the clubhead arc at P6. I have stated that the clubface-closing phenomenon is due to a twistaway action. So, why did Hogan use a twistaway maneuver during his "early left forearm supination" move, while Gary Woodland doesn't?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 8, 2013 14:52:59 GMT -5
BM stated in his "slice-fixing twistaway move" recommendation that a golfer should maintain the twistaway throughout the downswing to the finish. I have stated that a golfer cannot maintain a twistaway during the late downswing when the club releases. Who is correct? Why should a golfer not be able to maintain twistaway all the way to P7, and beyond? Jeff. The "Twistaway Maneuver" is done to create opposite movements/positions of the wrists and clubface from opening movements/postions 1) in the backswing, 2) at P4, 3) in the early downswing, and 4) at impact. There is nothing being suggested that the "twistaway maneuver" should be maintained at impact and into the followthrough. The "twistaway maneuver" positions the clubface pointing "away" from the body, so how could a golfer perform or maintain that move at impact and hit the ball?? Manzella wanted a swvel action in the follow-through to the finish where the clubface faces the ground, how can that movement possibly relate to the "twistaway maneuver"??
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 8, 2013 16:40:08 GMT -5
When Hogan performed an "early supination" move as he reached the P5.5-P6 zone he had a clubface that was closed to the clubhead arc at P6. I have stated that the clubface-closing phenomenon is due to a twistaway action. So, why did Hogan use a twistaway maneuver during his "early left forearm supination" move, while Gary Woodland doesn't? Jeff. Again, the "twistaway maneuver" positions the clubface "away" from the golfer, where is there any proof that Hogan is doing this at P6? It doesn't exist.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2013 17:27:03 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " Again, the "twistaway maneuver" positions the clubface "away" from the golfer, where is there any proof that Hogan is doing this at P6? It doesn't exist." I have no idea what you mean by the phrase "position the clubface away from the golfer". However, I do believe that twistaway (due to an active contraction of the flexor digitorum muscles to the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers) causes the clubface to close relative to the back of the left forearm. Hogan's (in the Jeffy animated gif), Dustin Johnson's and Aiko Leong's clubface are all closed relative to the back of the left forearm at P6. By the way, I could understand why someone could label that closed clubface at the P5-P5.5 position as "pointing the clubface away from the body" - see images 3 and 4 of this AL downswing sequence. I also find the following statement incomprehensible-: " The "Twistaway Maneuver" is done to create opposite movements/positions of the wrists and clubface from opening movements/postions." Finally, I never stated that twistaway should be held through impact to the finish. That statement comes from the BM quote that Chipitin posted. This the BM quote-: " Everyone who can play a lick, does the Twistaway at some point prior to impact. In Never Slice Again, we are trying to fix golfers who slice and have NEVER learned this essential move, and thus try—unsuccessfully—all sorts of other things to square up the golf club.
In Never Slice Again, we are proposing that a Slicer needs to apply this twist pretty early in the backswing, and then keep it applied—best that they can—all the way to the finish." Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 8, 2013 19:08:54 GMT -5
I have no idea what you mean by the phrase "position the clubface away from the golfer". Here is a pic of Manzella performing the "twistaway maneuver" where the clubface is positioned facing "away" from his body in the backswing, hence the name "twist - AWAY". Twistaway has nothing to do with squeezing the last three fingers of the left hand tighter, that action does not rotate the clubhead.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 8, 2013 19:10:26 GMT -5
I also find the following statement incomprehensible-: " The "Twistaway Maneuver" is done to create opposite movements/positions of the wrists and clubface from opening movements/postions." AGAIN, the reason Manzella came up with the "twistaway maneuver" was to get the golfer out of cocking both wrists in the backswing and ending up with a very open position of the left wrist bent, right wrist straight and clubhead toe down at the top of the backswing. "Holding the twist" into the downswing is a "feel" he wants the golfer to maintain so impact position will have the right wrist bent, left wrist flat with a square clubface which is the "opposite" position of the right wrist straight, left wrist bent with an open clubface.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2013 19:35:26 GMT -5
Konrad, That photo of BM demonstrating twistaway shows a clubface that is closed to the back of his left forearm. That's the same closed clubface position as Hogan at P6-P6.2 in Jeffy's animated gif, and AL/DJ in their mid-downswing - so I don't know why you told me that I was wrong. You also wrote-: " Twistaway has nothing to do with squeezing the last three fingers of the left hand tighter, that action does not rotate the clubhead." I disagree! I think that it is the finger-torquing action (due to the active contraction of the flexor digitorum profundus muscles to the 3rd, 4th and 5th left fingers) that closes the clubface relative to the back of the left forearm and also relative to the back of the left hand, and it is not solely due to left wrist palmar flexion. If it was solely due to left wrist palmar flexion, then Gary Woodland's clubface should also be closed at P5.5/P6 - and it is not closed in image 3 of this GW-sequence photo that I originally posted. GW has a palmar flexed left wrist at P5.5 and P6, but his clubface is not closed (compare image 3 to AL and DJ at the same P5.5 downswing position). By the way, a golfer will still upcock both wrists during the backswing action when using a twistaway maneuver during the backswing action. An open clubface at P4 is not due to upcocking both wrists during a backswing action, but it is due to having a bent left wrist at P4 (or due to an unfolding of the finger-clasping action at P4 - as Hogan demonstrated in the Life magazine photo accompanying his "secret" article). Life magazine photo Image 1 shows a standard GFLW while image 2 shows Hogan's reputed "secret move". Also, if a golfer really could "hold" that closed clubface position (due to twistway that BM demonstrates) all the way to impact, then the clubface would be closed, and not square, at impact - if the back of the left forearm faces the target at impact. Fortunately, twistaway cannot be easily maintained between P6.7-P7 when the left wrist becomes more ulnar-deviated in the late downswing, so this closed clubface-at-impact situation doesn't happen in golfers who use a twistaway maneuver during either their backswing or downswing. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2013 20:56:32 GMT -5
Konrad made the following statement-: " Twistaway has nothing to do with squeezing the last three fingers of the left hand tighter, that action does not rotate the clubhead." I disagree. I think that a twistaway maneuver rotates the clubface more closed and that it is due to the finger-torquing action that is intrinsic to a twistaway maneuver. Here is my "evidence". Experiment number 1: Grasp the grip end of a club - like Hogan demonstrates in this image - while making sure that the clubface is parallel to the back of your left hand. Then get into that Manzella P3 position by angulating your left wrist back (in a left wrist palmar flexion manner) by ~45 degrees. Look at the angulation of the clubface relative to the back of your left hand. Experiment number 2: Then repeat the same left wrist palmar flexion action to exactly the same ~45 degree amount, but use a twistaway maneuver as originally described by Joe Dante in the 1960s - see www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing3.htmlMake sure that you follow Joe Dante's description that accompanies this image in his book. JD stated that " the back of the left hand must turn down and under" and if you perform the twistaway maneuver as JD-described, then you should both "feel" and see the grip end of the clubshaft rotating about its longitudinal axis. Then look at the clubface relative to the back of the left hand at the P2-P3 position, and the clubface should look like the blue line in this next image, while your original experiment number 1's clubface should look less closed (like the red line). Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Dec 8, 2013 21:32:37 GMT -5
I totally agree with Jeff M. it is the same argument I had with Tapio about this. For the face angle to go to a more closed position you cannot use just pure P.F. that only lays it off to a flatter position at the top or angulates the club in the takeaway, it does not close the face more. The face closes more because of the axial rotation caused by what Jeff described, it is a combination move that is initiated by the fingers torquing the grip end and in doing so it also includes P.F. which delofts the face.
That is what makes the face "look/twist away" not just bending the trail wrist back and flattening the lead wrist or squeezing the last 3 fingers harder, those fingers are torquing the grip end rotationally which is what Jeff M. was eluding to as this was discussed in a previous thread.
You then get a more closed/square delofted face.
Tapio just can't understand this.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Dec 8, 2013 23:58:14 GMT -5
That's the same closed clubface position as Hogan at P6-P6.2 in Jeffy's animated gif I disagree. I do not think Hogan's clubface is closed in the photo below and I certainly do not believe Hogan utilized the Manzella "twistaway maneuver" in the downswing either. That is utterly absurd IMO.
|
|