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Post by konrad on Dec 9, 2013 0:14:09 GMT -5
I do not think finger flexion is responsible for the difference between the two photos above. Certainly Hogan did not swing to the top and end up in the position on the left, then twist the club into the position on the right. So whomever drew the red arrow showing the red spot moving from one position to the other thinking Hogan is employing finger flexion to rotate the handle is mistaken. The position on the left shows the right wrist in extension, left wrist flat and left lower forearm not pronated much, whereas the right photo shows the right wrist is flat and the left wrist is extended with the lower left forearm pronated, consequently the clubface will be more open with the position of the hands in the right photo. That very position in the right photo is the exact position that the Manzella "twistaway maneuver" is suppose to help the golfer avoid.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2013 1:54:53 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " I disagree. I do not think Hogan's clubface is closed in the photo below and I certainly do not believe Hogan utilized the Manzella "twistaway maneuver" in the downswing either. That is utterly absurd IMO." I disagree with you on both points. I think that the clubface is facing slightly groundwards, and that the toe of his club is not pointing straight up - as seen in Gary Woodland's P6 position. I strongly suspect that he was using an active contraction of his flexor digitorum muscles to the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers when he transitioned from the significantly cupped left wrist position (that he adopted at the P4 position) to the bowed left wrist position seen in Jeffy's animated gif at the P6-P6.2 position. That transition period occurred in the P5.5-P6 zone time period, and I believe that it needs a lot of active muscular force to suddenly transition from a markedly cupped to an overtly bowed left wrist over such a short time period. That you think that it is "utterly absurd" to believe that Hogan used any active contraction of his flexor digitorum muscles to the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers during that transition time period is merely your subjective opinion. I suspect that the left wrist palmar flexion in Gary Woodland's P5.5-P6 time period occurs passively - and that it due to his attempt to perform an early left forearm supination move while the club is being held back by the RFFW/right hand. If the left wrist palmar flexion happens passively, and if it doesn't involve any active contraction of the flexor digitorum muscles to the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers, then it is reasonable to assume that no twistaway phenomenon is operative during that time period, and that would account for the fact that GW's clubface doesn't close in the P5.5-P6 time period. Regarding the Life magazine photo, I am not implying that it is a "reverse finger torquing" phenomenon that makes the red dot move clockwise to a new position. It is simply due to the change in his degree of left wrist dorsiflexion from a GFLW to a bent left wrist. Here is an example of reverse finger torquing, where the finger tips lose their contact with the left palm. Note how the clubface becomes more open between image 1 and image 3 - while the left wrist remains flat. I really don't know whether Hogan had an element of this "reverse finger torquing" phenomenon in his reputed "secret move" action, or whether he simply bent his left wrist - although I have seen end-backswing photos of Hogan that suggest that possibility. Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 24, 2013 16:00:19 GMT -5
I think you are being fooled by the dark underexposed contrast of the clubhead in that P6.2 photo. I do not see any portion of the crown of the clubhead, just a slight bit of the toe portion of the clubhead. The actual clubface, for the most part, is point directly forward towards the camera. The red arrow I put in the photo is pointing at the spot on the head where the crown and toe portion of the head come together and that is pointing almost straight up. That said, the back of Hogan's lefthand is point directly at the camera and it is only very slightly bowed. Hogan's left arm is not supinated, the inside of his left wrist is facing his body. Hogan's right palm is facing directly at the camera, you can easily see his two middle fingers, which means his right wrist is most likely still extended quite a bit and his right forearm is not pronated. The clubface is not going to be closed with the hands and arms positioned in that way. Once tour players get the clubhead forward of the hands and arms towards the target line and the clubhead gets clearly below last parallel, the clubface will start to point towards the ball and ground. Even Gary Woodland's clubface is doing that in the pic below. But, that does not mean the clubface is closed. There is absolutely no evidence that Hogan had to employ any kind of "active" gripping of the last three fingers of his left hand to go from a cupped lead wrist to a bowed lead wrist. In fact, I know from experience it's not that difficult at all for the lead wrist to go into a bowed position between P5.5 and P6.5, especially if there is any laying down of the shaft in transition where the clubhead's CG gets below the hand path. That lead wrist will palmar flex very easily, no deliberate muscular force necessary. Your belief that Hogan needed "a lot" of active muscular force to go from cupped to bowed is merely your subjective opinion and there is no conclusive evidence to validate that belief. I feel you suspicion that Hogan could possibly be letting go of the handle at the top of his backswing is unwarranted. Even though it may appear the tips of his last two fingers of his left hand are not completely rapped around the grip and touching the pad/palm of the hand in some photos, the beefy pad of his left hand never appears to be separated from the handle. I don't think Hogan had a soft, loose grip with his left hand at the top of his backswing with a normal full swing, draw or fade.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 24, 2013 18:02:55 GMT -5
Konrad, You may believe that Hogan's clubface is not slightly closed (relative to the back of his left forearm) at P6.1, but it looks slightly closed to me - when viewing this animated gif produced by Jeffy. I also think that his left forearm is slightly more supinated at P6.1 - compared to the situation at P5.5. You also wrote-: " Once tour players get the clubhead forward of the hands and arms towards the target line and the clubhead gets clearly below last parallel, the clubface will start to point towards the ball and ground. Even Gary Woodland's clubface is doing that in the pic below. But, that does not mean the clubface is closed." I agree, and that is why I do not use the ground as a reference point. I use the back of the left lower forearm as a reference point and if the clubface is closed relative to the reference point, than I regard it as being closed. I think that Gary Woodland's clubface doesn't look closed relative to the back of his left lower forearm in that image, but I do think that Hogan's clubface looks marginally closed relative to the back of his left lower forearm at P6.1. You also wrote-: " There is absolutely no evidence that Hogan had to employ any kind of "active" gripping of the last three fingers of his left hand to go from a cupped lead wrist to a bowed lead wrist. In fact, I know from experience it's not that difficult at all for the lead wrist to go into a bowed position between P5.5 and P6.5, especially if there is any laying down of the shaft in transition where the clubhead's CG gets below the hand path. That lead wrist will palmar flex very easily, no deliberate muscular force necessary. Your belief that Hogan needed "a lot" of active muscular force to go from cupped to bowed is merely your subjective opinion and there is no conclusive evidence to validate that belief.I agree that I have no proof for those bold-highlighted statements. However, neither do you have proof to the contrary. You subjectively believe that it doesn't require activation of the flexor digitorum profundus muscles to the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers to go from a significantly cupped left wrist (at P5.5 in that animated gif) to a significantly arched left wrist at P6.1 (in that animated gif) where the clubface is closed relative to the back of the left lower forearm while I harbor a contrary subjective belief. It doesn't require much muscular force to go from a cupped to an arched left wrist, but I think that it does require a lot of twistaway force to simultaneously close the clubface while going from a cupped => arched left wrist. You also wrote-: " I feel you suspicion that Hogan could possibly be letting go of the handle at the top of his backswing is unwarranted. Even though it may appear the tips of his last two fingers of his left hand are not completely rapped around the grip and touching the pad/palm of the hand in some photos, the beefy pad of his left hand never appears to be separated from the handle." That bold-highlighted statement is irrelevant because if one reduces the finger torquing action by relaxing the flexor digitorum muscles to the left fingers, it will not cause the grip to lose contact with the heel pad (hypothenar eminence) and it will only decrease the strength of the finger curling action. Look at how much the clubface has rotated open in image 2 (relative to image 1) in this Oliver Heuler demonstration sequence and yet the grip is still closely opposed to the heel pad of his left palm in image 2. Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 24, 2013 22:58:32 GMT -5
The only thing that is going to make a difference in ballflight is the relationship of the clubface angle to the path of the clubhead. I don't know anyone of any significance who uses the back of the left forearm as a reference point to determine clubface angle in the downswing, other than you of course.
Those three photos of Heuler are a joke. In photo #2 he is maintaining the position of the left hand while loosening it enough so his right hand can turn the club so the face rotates more open. Obviously, Hogan didn't do anything remotely like that with his hands at the top of his backswing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 25, 2013 0:11:42 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " The only thing that is going to make a difference in ballflight is the relationship of the clubface angle to the path of the clubhead. I don't know anyone of any significance who uses the back of the left forearm as a reference point to determine clubface angle in the downswing, other than you of course.I am not surprised that you do not understand the significance of using the back of the left forearm as a reference point - considering your limited knowledge of golf swing biomechanics. It has nothing to with determining the clubface angle in the downswing - but it has a lot to do with factors that can affect/disrupt an intact LAFW/GFLW alignment or produce a gamma torquing phenomenon that can therefore secondarily affect the clubface angle. You also wrote-: " In photo #2 he is maintaining the position of the left hand while loosening it enough so his right hand can turn the club so the face rotates more open. Obviously, Hogan didn't do anything remotely like that with his hands at the top of his backswing." Again, I think that your comment reflects the quality of your thinking re: golf swing biomechanics. You believe that the right hand is actively turning the club about its longitudinal axis and that the left hand is simply passive. I think that the opposite biomechanical phenomenon is happening - I think that the left hand fingers are actively uncurling slightly, which torques the clubshaft about its longitudinal axis, and I think that the right wrist has to flatten to accomodate that biomechanical phenomenon. The reason for my "belief" is based on watching the OH video and listening to Oliver explain what he was actually/actively doing. By the way, I never stated that a "finger uncurling phenomenon" is definitely happening in Hogan's swing and I only stated that there may be an element of this finger uncurling phenomenon happening - note that Hogan's right wrist is flatter in image 2 of his Life photo. Whether Hogan actually had a decrease in the muscle tone of his flexor digitorum profundus muscle to his left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers at P4 is obviously unknowable, but it is not impossible. Whether he did, or not - I still think that it is very likely that he actively contracted that finger flexing muscle between P5.5 and P6.1 if his clubface really became more closed relative to the back of his left forearm. What other biomechanical phenomenon could produce that "clubface-closing effect" relative to the back of his left forearm as he transitioned between P5.5 and P6.1? Addendum added later:Konrad doesn't apparently think that the clubface is closed relative to the back of Hogan's left forearm. I am partly sympathetic to that viewpoint, because it doesn't definitely look closed at P6.1 on the DTL view of that animated image. If the clubface is not really closing between P5.5-P6.1 (as Jeffy has consistently claimed) then there is no reason to postulate that Hogan was using a twistaway phenomenon. I think that a twistaway phenomenon must be happening if the clubface becomes closed relative to the back of the left hand/forearm as seen in Aiko Leong's downswing between P4 and P6+. What other explanation can explain why AL's clubface is closed relative to the back of her left forearm at P4/P6 other than a twistaway phenomenon? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 25, 2013 23:33:10 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Regarding your animated gif of Hogan - can you please draw a red line parallel to the front surface of Hogan's clubface at the P6.1 position in both the face on and DTL images so that we can see where you think that the front surface of his clubface is actually oriented?
Thanks,
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 26, 2013 7:00:08 GMT -5
considering your limited knowledge of golf swing biomechanics. Typical of you to criticize another forum member whenever you get the chance. You threaten banishment of others for doing the same. Hypocrite. You pale in comparison to my talent, ability, experience and associations with great players, that your ad hominem comments are meaningless to me. I guess you just can't help feeding off your emotions. I'm " again" just correcting any and all of your misguided observations that I may happen to read when occasionally visiting this website. It has nothing to do with determining the clubface angle in the downswing - but it has a lot to do with factors that can affect/disrupt an intact LAFW/GFLW alignment or produce a gamma torquing phenomenon that can therefore secondarily affect the clubface angle. This comment is nonsensical. Whether the face is affected secondarily or not, it's still being affected, so saying your reference point of face to forearm has nothing to do with determining the clubface angle is irrational. Again, I think that your comment reflects the quality of your thinking re: golf swing biomechanics. I downloaded that Heuler video and viewed it in slow motion and what I said is precisely what Hueler does in the video to dramatically open the clubface at the top of the backswing position, which is that captured #2 image in your post. Heuler absolutely uses his right hand to turn the club while he loosens his left hand grip at the same time to accommodate the clubhead excessively rotating on it's axis and keeping the left wrist flat at the same time. Please show me a video of any golfer flattening the right wrist like he does in that video while keeping the left wrist flat while the clubhead rotates excessively. It's impossible to do that without taking the right hand palm completely off the club and significantly loosening the left hand grip. Heuler is talking about what he thinks are reasons people slice the ball. This from a guy who had no clue how to hit a golf ball himself, so he self-proclaimed himself a golf pro and began a quest to cure everyone, including himself, of the dreaded slice. (Actually, fixing a slice takes about 5 minutes once you explain to the golfer how to have the face left of the path). That video was produced 5 years ago and he is obviously completely clueless to what the average amateur needs to do to cure a slice. That information is terribly outdated and in some cases outright erroneous. It's no wonder that you endorse this wannabe and even put his stuff in one of your review articles. BTW, you have a typo in that article. You used the words "late downswing" when you should have used the words "late backswing". Maybe you'll catch it if you read the article again.
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Post by konrad on Dec 26, 2013 7:02:19 GMT -5
Konrad doesn't apparently think that the clubface is closed relative to the back of Hogan's left forearm. I am partly sympathetic to that viewpoint, because it doesn't definitely look closed at P6.1 on the DTL view of that animated image. What, is this some sort of veiled apology! LMAO!! I'm sure in your "mental universe" you think your knowledge of the golf swing is superior to everyone else. Mind boggling to me. Jeffy, Regarding your animated gif of Hogan - can you please draw a red line parallel to the front surface of Hogan's clubface at the P6.1 position in both the face on and DTL images so that we can see where you think that the front surface of his clubface is actually oriented? To elaborate on these photos of Hogan, Jeffy has already put up photos with red lines depicting his beliefs of clubhead orientation. This first one below is the DTL photo and in my opinion his red line is inaccurate. The clubhead is EXTREMELY blurry and washed out and to just put a line angled that much at the front of the blur is careless IMO. In the FO photo below, I really don't have much of a problem with his red line since it appears to be drawn along the leading edge of the clubhead. IMO, the toe side of the leading edge is not that much forward of the heel edge, especially with his right hand/arm position, I just don't think the clubhead is closed to the path at that point in that swing. I put together three photos of the same swing in sequence below. In the first photo on the left the clubhead is pretty clear, at least enough to see how the hosel/shaft is orientated to the face. Keeping that in mind, in the second photo I don't think the clubface is turned down as much as Jeffy's red line illustrates. In the third photo, the clubhead is pretty clear again and the face appears to be pointing left a lot more than what Jeffy believes Hogan did post impact. I think the sequence photo above gives a different perspective than the photo below where Jeffy believes the clubface is square to the path or even slightly closed to the path pre-impact and then post impact the face is open to the path. I don't think that is what's happening in the sequence photo above.
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Post by konrad on Dec 26, 2013 7:04:54 GMT -5
I put a red line down the shaft to where the hosel of the head is. If that clubface is truly closed to the path in that swing, then with that much shaft lean that clubface is going to have to be very delofted, based on the shaft/hosed/head orientation. I question that clubface position above being square or closed to the path because of a photo like this one below. It is also pretty distorted, but the clubface looks slightly open to me. We will NEVER know what Hogan's face angle to path was exactly, so it's going to be just our subjective opinions no matter what kind of perspectives we think we can create with the existing available Hogan photos and videos. I don't think Jeffy's idea of Hogan having a very stable clubface pre-impact to post-impact is too far fetched. If anyone could do something like that it would be Hogan. Watching him practice and play, he certainly appeared to be releasing the living daylights out of the clubhead with no holding off of the face whatsoever. Shut-to-open? I doubt it, but, having the face square before first touch and keeping it square to a point beyond separation is certainly not out of the realm of possibilities IMO.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 26, 2013 11:36:23 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " Typical of you to criticize another forum member whenever you get the chance. You threaten banishment of others for doing the same. Hypocrite." Be careful about calling me a "hypocrite" unless you want to get banned. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't tolerate being insulted at all, but you have frequently denigrated me and I have not banned you. I tolerate your insults because you do post valid counterarguments relating to golf swing mechanics/biomechanics issues, and I welcome counteraguments because they foster further debate. However, if you become more like Chipitin and primarily insult me (or Jeffy) and if you do not continue to provide sufficiently weighty counterarguments, then you will get promptly banned. Thank you for providing those images where Jeffy has drawn red lines. I forgot about those images. You wrote regarding the DTL image-: " To elaborate on these photos of Hogan, Jeffy has already put up photos with red lines depicting his beliefs of clubhead orientation.
This first one below is the DTL photo and in my opinion his red line is inaccurate." I tend to agree with you on this point. I have postulated that Hogan must have incorporated a twistaway action to explain how the clubface could be that closed (comparing the red line relative to the back of his left hand). If his clubface is not that closed - see blue line in my modified image below, then I would not have to postulate that Hogan used a twistaway action because the clubface would be straight-in-line with the back of his left hand. If the blue line accurately represents Hogan's clubface at P6.1, then I would regard his clubface as not being closed. Then, Jeffy's theory that a combined "early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" phenomenon causes clubface closure would not need to be refuted. If you agree that my blue line may be more accurately representative than Jeffy's red line, then we may have concordant opinions regarding this issue and I would probably agree with this bold-highlighted statement-: " I put together three photos of the same swing in sequence below. In the first photo on the left the clubhead is pretty clear, at least enough to see how the hosel/shaft is orientated to the face. Keeping that in mind, in the second photo I don't think the clubface is turned down as much as Jeffy's red line illustrates.You also wrote-: " I don't think Jeffy's idea of Hogan having a very stable clubface pre-impact to post-impact is too far fetched. If anyone could do something like that it would be Hogan. Watching him practice and play, he certainly appeared to be releasing the living daylights out of the clubhead with no holding off of the face whatsoever. Shut-to-open? I doubt it, but, having the face square before first touch and keeping it square to a point beyond separation is certainly not out of the realm of possibilities IMO.". There is no doubt in my mind that Hogan was a DHer (which definitionally means that he had a stable non-flipping/non-rolling clubface through the immediate impact zone between P6.9-P7.1/7.2). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 26, 2013 12:27:27 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " I downloaded that Heuler video and viewed it in slow motion and what I said is precisely what Hueler does in the video to dramatically open the clubface at the top of the backswing position, which is that captured #2 image in your post. Heuler absolutely uses his right hand to turn the club while he loosens his left hand grip at the same time to accommodate the clubhead excessively rotating on it's axis and keeping the left wrist flat at the same time" I now agree with your bold-highlighted criticism of Heuler's demonstration. I attempted to see if I could rotate the clubface the same amount as OH did between image 1 and image 2 by actively unfolding my left hand fingers without using my right hand at all because I didn't use my right hand to hold the club, and I only did the experiment with my left hand alone. I found that I had to significantly change the angle between the proximal interphalangeal bones and the MC bones to rotate the clubface to a significant degree while there was a negligible difference in that angle between Heuler's image 1 and image 2 - see composite image below. That means that OH was loosening his grip and rotating the grip in his loosely-held left grip, rather than actively unfolding his fingers and thereby torquing the grip in a rotary manner. You win this argument! Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 26, 2013 13:46:26 GMT -5
To elaborate on these photos of Hogan, Jeffy has already put up photos with red lines depicting his beliefs of clubhead orientation. This first one below is the DTL photo and in my opinion his red line is inaccurate. The clubhead is EXTREMELY blurry and washed out and to just put a line angled that much at the front of the blur is careless IMO.I think your criticism of the line is a bit overwrought. Here is another DTL view showing a very similar, slightly closed clubface. Super accurate Furyk has also shut the face early; compare Hogan and Furyk to Gainey, who has a super-strong grip. For Hogan and Furyk to have a clubface similar to Gainey at this point, they had to supinate the left forearm earlier in the downswing: In contrast, here is uber-roller Phil Mickelson with a far more open clubface, about 30 degrees more open than Hogan: Post-impact, Phil's face has rolled over and is facing the ground: he has released open-to-shut; Furyk has gone from shut (relative to both Phil and Hogan) to open (relative to both Phil and Hogan). Hogan is in-between. Despite being about 30 degrees more closed pre-impact, Hogan's clubface is about 20 degrees more open than Phil's at this point. That means his clubface has rotated 50 degrees less than Mickelson's over the same span. Furyk's clubface is still facing the sky; his clubface has rotated less than Hogan's: Hogan's clubface isn't anywhere close to even square-to-the path that far from impact. You have clearly misunderstood me and Kelvin. Well, you are just making that up. I know what Hogan's clubface looks like post-impact; see the comparison to Furyk and Mickelson above. I think you are missing the point. In a shut-to-open release, the player closes the face early, to the point where an unimpeded release would result in a closed face-to-path at impact and a hooking ball flight. To prevent the hook, the player employs various movements with the body, arms and wrists that impedes the closing prior to impact, so the face is not closed-to-the path at impact. Whether or not the face is for an instant closed-to-the path pre-impact, I really don't know or care. But the swing feel is definitely shutting in the downswing and opening in the through swing. Of course, if the opening movements are initiated too late, the ball will still hook.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 26, 2013 14:43:34 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this image. Jeffy then wrote-: " Here is another DTL view showing a very similar, slightly closed clubface. Super accurate Furyk has also shut the face early; compare Hogan and Furyk to Gainey, who has a super-strong grip. For Hogan and Furyk to have a clubface similar to Gainey at this point, they had to supinate the left forearm earlier in the downswing". I disagree with Jeffy's interpretation because he is not taking into account the different angles of their left arm, different degrees of left hand grip strength and different degrees of left wrist palmar flexion. I think that Hogan's clubface is roughly parallel to the back of his left hand and back of his left forearm. I think that Furyk's clubface is also likely parallel to the back of his left forearm. I think that Gainey's clubface is closed relative to the back of his left hand/left forearm (which are straight-line-aligned) because he has a very strong left hand grip. By the way, I don't think that the red line in Hogan's image is parallel to his clubface, and it is drawn tilted too far outwards (towards the ball-target line) giving the false impression that his clubface is more closed. Jeffy then posted this composite image. Jeffy then wrote-: " In contrast, here is uber-roller Phil Mickelson with a far more open clubface, about 30 degrees more open than Hogan:". I disagree! I think that it is irrational to compare Hogan's clubface (relative to the ground or a vertical) compared to Mickelson's clubface because PM's lead arm is angled far more horizontally than Hogan's lead arm. That's why one must look at their lead forearm as a better reference point. In fact, PM's clubface is much more closed relative to his lead forearm than Hogan's clubface can be deemed to be closed relative to his left forearm. Jeffy then posted this composite image. Jeffy then wrote-: " Post-impact, Phil's face has rolled over and is facing the ground: he has released open-to-shut; Furyk has gone from shut (relative to both Phil and Hogan) to open (relative to both Phil and Hogan). Hogan is in-between." I totally disagree. I think that PM's clubface was likely square and not open at impact, and his clubface is more closed (relative to Hogan's) because he is using a full-roll hand release action while Hogan is using a no-roll hand release action. I also think that Furyk is not going from shut-to-open and that he is going from square (at impact) to slightly open because he is likely using a small degree of reverse-roll hand release action post-impact. Regarding Hogan's clubface - I think that it is perpendicular to the inclined plane, which means that it is square, and not open, to the clubhead arc Jeffy finally wrote-: " I think you are missing the point. In a shut-to-open release, the player closes the face early, to the point where an unimpeded release would result in a closed face-to-path at impact and a hooking ball flight. To prevent the hook, the player employs various movements with the body, arms and wrists that impedes the closing prior to impact, so the face is not closed-to-the path at impact. Whether or not the face is for an instant closed-to-the path pre-impact, I really don't know or care. But the swing feel is definitely shutting in the downswing and opening in the through swing. Of course, if the opening movements are initiated too late, the ball will still hook.". Regarding that bold-highlighted statement, which golfer is using a shut-to-open technique and what body/arm/wrist motions is that player using pre-impact to prevent hooking? It cannot be Hogan because there is no evidence that his clubface is abnormally closed (shut) between P6 and P7 and there is no evidence that it is open between P7 and P7.2. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 26, 2013 16:05:59 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this image. Jeffy then wrote-: " Here is another DTL view showing a very similar, slightly closed clubface. Super accurate Furyk has also shut the face early; compare Hogan and Furyk to Gainey, who has a super-strong grip. For Hogan and Furyk to have a clubface similar to Gainey at this point, they had to supinate the left forearm earlier in the downswing". I disagree with Jeffy's interpretation because he is not taking into account the different angles of their left arm, different degrees of left hand grip strength and different degrees of left wrist palmar flexion. I think that Hogan's clubface is roughly parallel to the back of his left hand and back of his left forearm. I think that Furyk's clubface is also likely parallel to the back of his left forearm. I think that Gainey's clubface is closed relative to the back of his left hand/left forearm (which are straight-line-aligned) because he has a very strong left hand grip. By the way, I don't think that the red line in Hogan's image is parallel to his clubface, and it is drawn tilted too far outwards (towards the ball-target line) giving the false impression that his clubface is more closed. How is any of that relevant to the simple fact of geometry, which is all three players need similar amounts of clubface rotation from there to impact? It doesn't matter how they got there or the clubface's relationship to the left forearm. [/size][/quote] Why is the clubface's angle relative to the back of the left forearm at all relevant, or whether Mickelson's lead arm is more horizontal? Mickelson's clubface must rotate at least 30 degrees more than Hogan's and Furyk's. Mickelson can be square, open or shut at impact in that swing; it doesn't matter. The fact is that Phil struggles to square the face consistently whereas neither Hogan or Furyk do. Phil fights to close the face, so he is a roller. Furyk and Hogan "fight the hook", so they have much less roll post impact. Mickelson would never find his ball if he released like Hogan or Furyk. Again, you are missing the point. Shut-to-open describes a player who reduces the amount of clubface rotation through impact by shutting the clubface early in the downswing, then impedes the rotation through impact. As a result, Hogan has 50 degrees less rotation than Phil, and Furyk much more. Who said the clubface had to be "abnormally closed"? It is 30 degrees more closed than Mickelson's and equally closed relative to me:
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