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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 5, 2013 14:10:30 GMT -5
KM/Jeffy have promoted the idea that DHers have an early left forearm supination phenomenon that closes the clubface relative to the CH arc, and they have stated that this phenomenon simply allows them to rotate their closed clubface into impact by rotating their torso from P6 to P7. I have previously shown the early left forearm supination can only steepen the clubshaft, and that it cannot alter the clubface angle relative to the left forearm, and I have concluded that it is the combination of the associated "left wrist palmar flexion + twistaway manenuver" that closes the clubface relative to the CH arc between P5.5 and P6.2. I now have reason to change my mind - based on an analysis of Gary Woodland's downswing action. Here is a you-tube video Here are capture images. Image 1 is at P4 - note that he has a GFLW and that his clubface is parallel to the back of his left forearm. Image 2 is at P5 - note that he still has a GFLW and his clubface is still parallel to the back of his left forearm and it is open to the CH arc. Image 3 is at P5.5 - note that he now has an AFLW (slightly palmar flexed left wrist) and he is starting to supinate his left forearm. However, note that there is no/minimal closing of his clubface relative to the CH arc. Image 4 is at P6 - and he has definite evidence of the combination of "early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion", but the toe of his club is pointing up, and he doesn't have a closed clubface (relative to the CH arc). Image 5 is at P6.5 - his clubface is not closed to the CH arc. In other words, he doesn't manifest the clubface closing phenomenon described by KM/Jeffy. I think that it suggests that the clubface closing phenomenon is primarily due to any associated twistaway phenomenon that may accompany an "early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" phenomenon. Compare GW's dowswning action to Aiko Leong's. Note that AL has a closed clubface relative to her left forearm and relative to the CH arc at P4 (image 1) and at P4.5 (image 2). She has an AFLW and she is presumably using a twistaway maneuver. Note how the clubface is closed to the CH arc all the way between P4 and P6 (image 5). I think that AL has a much more closed clubface than GW's clubface during the P4-P6 time period, and I strongly suggest that it is due to the fact that she is using a twistaway maneuver - while GW doesn't use a twistaway maneuver. Jeff.
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Post by kts1230 on Dec 6, 2013 11:39:11 GMT -5
2 things:
1) Assuming that early club face closing comes from the twistaway versus left wrist supination and palmar flexion, and assuming one were to perform the twistaway early, does that mean the dissipation of clubface closure from P6 to P6.5 due to going from RD to UD doesn't happen?
2) If you wanted to drive/hold by squaring the clubface early and then rotating through impact, would you perform the twistaway at the start of the downswing and then just ride that position to impact?
In my own re creations of your clubface closure dissipation theory, I could always see what you were saying. If I were to simply re-create your movement (stationary, not in a golf swing) I could see that the clubface is more closed in RD versus UD. That being said, not once did I ever believe that that was happening in the golf swing. In my slow motion re-creations of early clubface closing in the golf swing, if I close it early it stays closed and I never need late supination or late anything.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 12:26:21 GMT -5
Here are my answers to your two questions-: 1) Assuming that early club face closing comes from the twistaway versus left wrist supination and palmar flexion, and assuming one were to perform the twistaway early, does that mean the dissipation of clubface closure from P6 to P6.5 due to going from RD to UD doesn't happen?No. I think that it always happens. I cannot find an example where the clubface remains as closed to the clubhead arc at P6.7/P7 as it was at P4 or P6. For example, here is Aiko Leong at P6.7 (image 1) - I think that that the clubface is more open to the back of her left lower forearm and open to the clubhead arc - compared to her P4 and P6 positions. Also, look at her clubface at impact (image 3) - surely you agree that it is i) now less closed to the back of her left forearm and ii) now square to the clubhead arc compared to the situation at P6 (see image 5 in my series of images of AL in my previous post) where the clubface was i) more closed (and not square) to the clubhead arc and ii) more closed to the back of her left forearm. That means that the phenomenon of "dissipation of clubface closure" must have happened at some time point between P6 and P7. 2) If you wanted to drive/hold by squaring the clubface early and then rotating through impact, would you perform the twistaway at the start of the downswing and then just ride that position to impact?
I don't know how that it is possible- considering the phenomenon of "dissipation of clubface closure". Aiko Leong has a very closed clubface at P4 and P6 (which I believe is due to a twistaway maneuver), but she still needs to rotate her left forearm counterclockwise between P6 and P7 to square the clubface, and that would not be necessary if she didn't manifest a "dissipation of clubface closure" phenomenon. I have drawn a red line over the front of her left antecubital fossa, and a blue line over the the radial border of her left lower forearm. I believe that her radial bone is rotating counterclockwise (relative to her left antecubital fossa) between P6 and P7. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 13:03:56 GMT -5
Kts1230, Here is another example. Dustin Johnson. I have draw a red line parallel to his clubface and a blue line parallel to the back of his left forearm. One can clearly see that the clubface is very closed relative to the back of his left forearm at P4 and P6. That, theoretically, means that he could simply rotate into impact between P6 and P7 without having to rotate his left lower forearm counterclockwise - if the "dissipation of clubface closing" phenomenon didn't exist. However, look at the next series of images between P6 and P7. Do you not agree that the clubface is less closed relative to the back of his left forearm at impact (image 4) than it was at P4 and P6? Addendum added later: I made another series of capture images of Dustin Johnson from this caddy view video. Note how closed the clubface is at P4 and P6 (relative to the back of his left forearm) - compared to P7 and P7.2. I cannot understand how that is possible - if a "clubface closure dissipation" phenomenon doesn't happen in the later downswing. Note that this video is captured at 3,000 frames/second, which is 10X the frame rate of a Casio camera at 300 frames/second. Using a swing analyser program, it is a joy to toggle through the downswing frames and watch the clubface change its relationship to the back of his left forearm. It would be nice to have a 3-D machine capture this clubface-left forearm relationship between P4 and P7.2. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 17:34:05 GMT -5
I have deleted all of Chipitin's posts because they do not deal with the primary issue of this thread - which is providing an explanation as to why the relationship of the clubface relative to the back of the left forearm changes from being closed at P4/P6 to being less closed at P7 in Dustin Johnson's' and Aiko Leong's downswing, while there is no clubface-closing phenomenon in Gary Woodland's downswing.
Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 17:55:44 GMT -5
At the 14:10 mark is the start of the explanation.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 18:09:08 GMT -5
After 14:10 minutes in that video, he only demonstrates a PA#3 release action happening between P6.7 and P7. There is no change in the relationship between the clubface and the back of the left lower forearm during a PA#3 release action. That video's "PA#3 release action" explanation doesn't explain why the clubface is more closed relative to the back of the left lower forearm at P4 and P6 in AL's and DJ's swing - relative to their P6.7 position.
Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 18:16:11 GMT -5
Combination P.F. and Gamma torque, and it's explained in that video how the closed face angle is then changed to square. It's all in there.
If you lay the shaft back ala Como/ Sasho M.'s video the face angle doesn't change as it is thru the beta plane and you get pure P.F. of the lead wrist, (reverse beta)
So you need Gamma/axial rotation along with the P.F. which is Twistaway! Then you get a closing delofted face angle
To keep the closing face from closing to much you use increasing axis tilt/ side bend as explained in the video. That affects the shoulders and thus the arm unit and the face angle.
That is Jeffy's closed to open theory, except for this.
The clubface is constantly closing down relatively to the shaft itself. There is no "arc" it's an elipse. The clubface doesn't close, open and then close again. It's closing in space and we are trying to time that "closing event" in relation to the ball on the ground.
There is axial rotation data that shows this constant closing.
How else do you think Hogan hit his fade with a closing face angle using P.F. and Gamma just before impact and then it's magically square/ less closing with a path more left than the face?
That is Hogan's secret. How he makes the bowed/P.f. Gamma wrist closing move and leftwards path work without pull hooking or just plain pulling it left.
We have gone thru this before in another thread. You just basically ignored my posts and keep disagreeing thinking I couldn't possibly know anything.... wrong!
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 19:48:18 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 19:48:24 GMT -5
I am flabbergasted that Chipitin thinks that his explanation has anything to do with my question. His gamma rotation is nothing more than what normally happens between P6.7 and P7 in golfers who use a neutral left hand grip and it is not a part of a twistaway maneuver. It also happens in Gary Woodland's and Henrik Stenson's late downswing - and they both don't use a twistaway action that closes the clubface between P4 and P6 (as occurs in AL's and DJ's downswing).
Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 19:55:20 GMT -5
I am flabbergasted that you think I'm talking about those golfers as you said Dustin J. and A.L. Since you said this:
"don't know how that it is possible- considering the phenomenon of "dissipation of clubface closure". Aiko Leong has a very closed clubface at P4 and P6 (which I believe is due to a twistaway maneuver), but she still needs to rotate her left forearm counterclockwise between P6 and P7 to square the clubface, and that would not be necessary if she didn't manifest a "dissipation of clubface closure" phenomenon"
It's obvious that different golfers can employ all kinds of moves and do different things to get what they want or don't want.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 19:59:35 GMT -5
Things don't happen in isolation, in a snapshot, they develop over a time period, when you see them doesn't mean that's exactly when they started or finished.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 20:01:42 GMT -5
I am flabbergasted that Chipitin thinks that his explanation has anything to do with my question. His gamma rotation is nothing more than what normally happens between P6.7 and P7 in golfers who use a neutral left hand grip and it is not a twistaway maneuver. It also happens in Gary Woodland's and Henrik Stenson's late downswing - and they both don't use a twistaway action that closes the clubface between P4 and P6 (as occurs in AL's and DJ's downswing). Jeff. Never said twistaway was Gamma, Putting words in my mouth again. I said this: So you need Gamma/axial rotation along with the P.F. which is Twistaway! Then you get a closing delofted face angle
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 6, 2013 20:19:47 GMT -5
Chipitin,
I agree that you didn't refer to Henrik Stenson and Gary Woodland in your explanation. However, I did - and I am specifically stating that Gary Woodland manifests left wrist palmar flexion and gamma rotation between P6 and P7 and that this dual-biomechanical combination is not a twistaway maneuver (even though it involves a combined PF/gamma rotation action between P6 and P7). Only AL and DJ employ a twistaway action between P4 and P6 and their clubface is closed to the back of their forearm at P4 and P6, while GW's clubface is not closed at either P4 and P6. My question relates to the P4 => P6 time period, and not the late downswing (between P6 and P7).
Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Dec 6, 2013 20:22:01 GMT -5
Well what do you think is "twistaway"?
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