Getting the hands more forward at P6

[janik]

Hi guys,

I am really struggling to get my hands down to in front of my right thigh by P6 shaft parallel. Instead my hands are a good 8 inches to the right (from my golfer’s perspective)

My question: is it more right arm adduction or torso rotation that brings the hands more forward? If it is either, how does one still maintain the path from the inside? As for me both would throw the club head over the top.

Any other advice not specific to answering my question appreciated.

Thanks
Janik

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 1, 2021 6:55:00 GMT -5 janik said:

Hi guys,

I am really struggling to get my hands down to in front of my right thigh by P6 shaft parallel. Instead my hands are a good 8 inches to the right (from my golfer’s perspective)

My question: is it more right arm adduction or torso rotation that brings the hands more forward? If it is either, how does one still maintain the path from the inside? As for me both would throw the club head over the top.

Any other advice not specific to answering my question appreciated.

Thanks
Janik

Why do want to get your hands in front of your right thigh at P6 rather than having them slightly to the right-side of your right thigh?

If you do want to achieve that goal, consider these comparative hand arc paths of Dustin Johnson's driver and short iron swings.

His hand arc path is more U-shaped in his driver swing and more V-shaped in his short iron swing.

To make one's hand arc path more V-shaped, one would need to have a more vertical posture and avoid a lot of secondary axis tilt/right lateral bend, and one could simultaneously use the aiming-point technique where one aims the hands (butt end of the club) between P4 => P6 at a point on the ball-target line that is much closer to the target. The aiming point technique should not cause an OTT move if the trail shoulder is kept back while the hands slide downwards across the front of the rotating torso.

Another biomechanical element that creates a more V-shaped hand arc path is allowing the left border of the pelvis to shift outside the outer border of the left foot during the downswing by allowing for a small degree of pelvic sway motion. Note that the outer limit of DJ's left pelvis is outside his left foot in image 2, but inside his left foot in image 1.

Jeff.

[janik]

Thanks for your reply, Dr. Mann.

The reason I want to get the hands more forward (target-ward) by shaft parallel (P6) is because it’s what I see great players achieve across all clubs. Whereas I have ‘cast’ aka lost some lag so when my shaft is parallel my hands have not come forward enough. By the time my hands pass my right thigh the club is nearly fully released.

Regarding your comment on U vs V hand arc. Maybe I misunderstood your downswing chapter on your website or the purpose of your reply on this thread; but wouldn’t a more V shaped hand arc path cause me to cast even more than currently?

Following another re-read of your downswing chapter, I spent a range session trying the ‘pump pump go’ type drill which you recommend for preventing a club cast. While I can get the feeling correct as soon as I have to do the go and hit the little white ball, my brain reverts to the early cast and therefore zero shaft lean at impact. This is in spite of my feel being the same as the pump action.

Have you any advice or concept clarification that would help me to correct this early cast?

Thanks again,
Janik

Ps I don’t have an early cast per se, as in I still have a 90 degree angle of lag at P5. My casting is more from P5.5 to P6. Whereas I see pro golfers properly release from P6 to P7.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 1, 2021 15:51:13 GMT -5 janik said:

Thanks for your reply, Dr. Mann.

The reason I want to get the hands more forward (target-ward) by shaft parallel (P6) is because it’s what I see great players achieve across all clubs. Whereas I have ‘cast’ aka lost some lag so when my shaft is parallel my hands have not come forward enough. By the time my hands pass my right thigh the club is nearly fully released.

Regarding your comment on U vs V hand arc. Maybe I misunderstood your downswing chapter on your website or the purpose of your reply on this thread; but wouldn’t a more V shaped hand arc path cause me to cast even more than currently?

Following another re-read of your downswing chapter, I spent a range session trying the ‘pump pump go’ type drill which you recommend for preventing a club cast. While I can get the feeling correct as soon as I have to do the go and hit the little white ball, my brain reverts to the early cast and therefore zero shaft lean at impact. This is in spite of my feel being the same as the pump action.

Have you any advice or concept clarification that would help me to correct this early cast?

Thanks again,
Janik

Ps I don’t have an early cast per se, as in I still have a 90 degree angle of lag at P5. My casting is more from P5.5 to P6. Whereas I see pro golfers properly release from P6 to P7.

If your clubshaft has released too much between P5 => P6 then it implies that your trail elbow is straightening too soon and/or your hand arc path is too V-shaped (and not sufficiently U-shaped). It does not specifically depend on hand position at P6.

Acquiring forward shaft lean at impact is a much more complex issue because it also depends on the speed of release of PA#2 between P6 => P7 relative to the speed of hand movement down the hand arc path between P6 => P7, and it does not necessarily correlate with hand position (relative to the right thigh) at P6.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

I was looking at this video on hand path by Chris Ryan and wondering whether this is a possible reason for using right hand circumduction in the late downswing.



Here is his reasoning for the hands to move further towards the ball-target line (basically to prevent the right elbow from moving too far behind the mid-lower torso)





So is it logical to assume that if a golfer wishes his hands to be further forwards towards the ball-target line in the downswing at P6 (without his right elbow being stuck behind his mid-lower torso), the right hand must have a degree of circumduction to allow the club to still swing 'on plane' from P6-P6.7 (see images below)? Although it looks as if his right forearm has pronated somewhat from P6 -P6.7 (ie. look at the movement of his watch), I'm assuming that is an exaggeration because he hasn't performed his body pivot properly while demonstrating what the hands are doing on the grip.





DG


PS. Here is an image from his full swing and one can see that his right forearm doesn't look as pronated as per the previous image (at around P6.7).  It is difficult to assess actual degree of forearm rotation from a DTL view. 

[imperfectgolfer]

DG,

I think that how far the hands are out (towards the ball-target line) at P6 in a pro golfer's swing (presuming he adopts a weak/neutral lead hand grip) is mainly going to depend on whether he has a small or large accumulator #3 angle at impact. Chris Ryan does not consider that factor.

Here is the comparison between Phil Mickelson and Sergio Garcia.

Phil Mickelson

Note that PM's hands are far away from his body at P6 (image 3), that his lead arm is extended outwards and that his trail elbow is well in front of his trail hip area.

Note that he has a small accumulator #3 angle at impact and his lead arm is outstretched away from his body (image 6).

Sergio Garcia

Note that his hands are closer to his body at P6 (image 2) and that his lead arm is more vertical and that his trail elbow is alongside (and not well in front of) his trail hip area.

Note that he has a large accumulator #3 angle at impact (image 4). Note that his lead arm is much more vertical (compared to PM)

You stated-: "So is it logical to assume that if a golfer wishes his hands to be further forwards towards the ball-target line in the downswing at P6 (without his right elbow being stuck behind his mid-lower torso), the right hand must have a degree of circumduction to allow the club to still swing 'on plane' from P6-P6.7 (see images below)?"

No!

The trail wrist only circumducts when it straightens and that mainly happens after P6.5 and not between P6 => P6.5. The trail forearm is usually still very supinated between P6 => P6.5 and it only significantly rotates counterclockwise in a pronatory direction during the PA#3 release action that mainly happens between P6.5 => P7.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks for this explanation Dr Mann.

DG

[janik]

Dec 2, 2021 10:30:10 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Acquiring forward shaft lean at impact is a much more complex issue because it also depends on the speed of release of PA#2 between P6 => P7 relative to the speed of hand movement down the hand arc path between P6 => P7, and it does not necessarily correlate with hand position (relative to the right thigh) at P6.

Jeff.

Thanks, Dr. Mann.

To clarify, I was just using my right thigh as a datum relative to the ball position. When I said more forward I means my hands to be further along the hand path toward the target (not ball specifically), and my right thigh provides a visual reference for where the hands are along their arc at various points of P6-P7.

So on the topic of shaft lean - this is something I have never achieved in spite of nearly 2 years searching for the secret! 

What would be your top one or two tips / things to practice to achieve shaft lean? 

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 7, 2021 9:02:02 GMT -5 janik said:

Dec 2, 2021 10:30:10 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Acquiring forward shaft lean at impact is a much more complex issue because it also depends on the speed of release of PA#2 between P6 => P7 relative to the speed of hand movement down the hand arc path between P6 => P7, and it does not necessarily correlate with hand position (relative to the right thigh) at P6.

Jeff.

Thanks, Dr. Mann.

To clarify, I was just using my right thigh as a datum relative to the ball position. When I said more forward I means my hands to be further along the hand path toward the target (not ball specifically), and my right thigh provides a visual reference for where the hands are along their arc at various points of P6-P7.

So on the topic of shaft lean - this is something I have never achieved in spite of nearly 2 years searching for the secret! 

What would be your top one or two tips / things to practice to achieve shaft lean? 

The most important swing factors allowing for forward shaft lean at impact and avoiding flipping before/through impact are-:

1. Use a lead arm swinging action with a passive release of the club (release of PA#2).
2. Ensure that the lead arm does not stall its forward motion during the late downswing or early followthrough.
3. Avoid any push-pressure being applied by the trail hand below the coupling point (at or near PP#3) during the downswing (especially during the later downswing).

4. As an additional (optional) choice, a very strong lead hand grip, or a bowed lead wrist with a weak/neutral lead hand grip, naturally promotes the acquisition of forward shaft lean at impact.

5. Having a very open pelvis/upper torso alignment at impact makes it easier to perform a no-roll DH-hand release action that is combined with forward shaft lean through impact.

6. Intentionally ensuring that one has created a divot starting after ball contact and avoiding any scooping action of the hands (that can cause a "fat shot").

7. Timing-timing-timing = timing the release of the club relative to the targetwards motion of the hands during the later downswing!!!

Jeff.

[janik]

Thank you, Dr. Mann, I appreciate you sharing these points, which I will think about and work on in my practice.

[janik]

Hi again, Dr. Mann,

I spent a lot of time going through your list at the range and I have some burning questions you will likely be able to answer.

I came to a realisation that forward shaft lean is not in the plane of the release of PA#2 (wrist cock), as this ulnar deviation must be re-instated for one to get the club head back down to the ball! Rather, forward shaft lean is an effect of the club head not having past the lead hand in the plane of flexion/extension. Is this correct?

With that in mind, I am trying to understand the movement through impact that prevents the club head overtaking the lead hand. Let's say we visualise the swing from thigh to thigh area with the lead forearm already released in a rotation that points the face square to the arc (just to remove the variable that is the release of PA#3). Am I correct in saying that the angular velocity of the lead hand assembly must be at least that of the club head in order to prevent the club head overtaking the hands and thus maintain the forward shaft lean?

So for me, I would translate this understanding into the practical "feeling" for the movement from P6->P7 as down-cock (release PA#2), rotate arm (release PA#3) and importantly; pull through the ball (to prevent an over-take by the club head).

I would appreciate your clarification on this.

Many thanks
Janik

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 8, 2021 7:19:56 GMT -5 janik said:

Hi again, Dr. Mann,

I spent a lot of time going through your list at the range and I have some burning questions you will likely be able to answer.

I came to a realisation that forward shaft lean is not in the plane of the release of PA#2 (wrist cock), as this ulnar deviation must be re-instated for one to get the club head back down to the ball! Rather, forward shaft lean is an effect of the club head not having past the lead hand in the plane of flexion/extension. Is this correct?

With that in mind, I am trying to understand the movement through impact that prevents the club head overtaking the lead hand. Let's say we visualise the swing from thigh to thigh area with the lead forearm already released in a rotation that points the face square to the arc (just to remove the variable that is the release of PA#3). Am I correct in saying that the angular velocity of the lead hand assembly must be at least that of the club head in order to prevent the club head overtaking the hands and thus maintain the forward shaft lean?

So for me, I would translate this understanding into the practical "feeling" for the movement from P6->P7 as down-cock (release PA#2), rotate arm (release PA#3) and importantly; pull through the ball (to prevent an over-take by the club head).

I would appreciate your clarification on this.

Many thanks
Janik

You asked-: "I came to a realisation that forward shaft lean is not in the plane of the release of PA#2 (wrist cock), as this ulnar deviation must be re-instated for one to get the club head back down to the ball! Rather, forward shaft lean is an effect of the club head not having past the lead hand in the plane of flexion/extension. Is this correct?"

It depends on lead hand grip strength.

If one uses a very strong lead hand grip, then the plane of release of PA#2 in the later downswing and through impact is parallel to the ball-target line, and therefore forward shaft lean is within that plane of PA#2 release.

However, if one uses a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip, then the plane of release of PA#2 is more perpendicular to the ball-target line at impact and forward shaft lean is roughly angled 90 degrees relative to the plane of PA#2 release at impact. The amount of angulation of the plane of PA#2 release relative to the ball-target line between P6 => P7 depends on the timing and speed of lead forearm supination (timing and speed of rotation of the intact LFFW between P6 => P7). 

Here are capture images of Kelli Oride's PA#3 release action.

Note how much the back of her lead hand rotates counterclockwise between P6 => P7 due mainly to lead forearm supination. Note that her clubshaft (red line) rotates at the same speed (same angular velocity) as her lead lower forearm (blue line) because she maintains an intact LFFW during that entire rotational process. Note that the plane of release of PA#2 is happening within the plane of the intact LFFW, which is constantly changing its angular relationship relative to the ball-target line during the P6 => P7 time period. Note that she acquires the desired amount of forward shaft lean at impact by timing her release of PA#3 (= timing her release of the intact LFFW) and not solely by timing her release of PA#2.

Note that the forward angular velocity of her lead arm between P7 => P7.2 must match the angular velocity of her clubshaft if she maintains an intact LFFW and avoids flipping, which means that she is constantly "pulling" her lead arm targetwards through impact in order to prevent flipping.

I discussed these issues in topic number 8a of my downswing chapter - see

perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm#topic8a

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

There was something I found confusing in your downswing topic8a and it was the use of your word 'deceleration'.

You said :

-----------------------------------------------

However, there is substantial evidence that the clubhead of a pro golfer's driver is not accelerating into impact.

Here are images of the 3D kinematic sequence graphs of two pro golfers - Rickie Fowler and Jordan Spieth.



The brown graph shows the angular velocity of the clubshaft. The slope of the graph shows its rate of acceleration. Note that the slope becomes much less steep in the later downswing, which means that the clubhead is actually decelerating slightly just before impact. In fact, a golf researcher studied the driver swings of pro golfers (both male and female) and noted that the "average" clubhead speed of the study group's driver swings peaked at 94% of the downswing period, and then decelerated slightly before impact.

-------------------------------------------------

Those graphs actually show a 'decrease' in the acceleration but an increase in speed into impact. For example, if the clubhead speed peaked at 94% of the downswing for Rickie Fowler and Jordan Spieth graphs then the slope of those brown graphs would be 'negative ' as they approached impact. Basically the magnitude of their positive acceleration is decreasing but they were still actually accelerating into impact.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 8, 2021 11:05:37 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

There was something I found confusing in your downswing topic8a and it was the use of your word 'deceleration'.

You said :

-----------------------------------------------

However, there is substantial evidence that the clubhead of a pro golfer's driver is not accelerating into impact.

Here are images of the 3D kinematic sequence graphs of two pro golfers - Rickie Fowler and Jordan Spieth.



The brown graph shows the angular velocity of the clubshaft. The slope of the graph shows its rate of acceleration. Note that the slope becomes much less steep in the later downswing, which means that the clubhead is actually decelerating slightly just before impact. In fact, a golf researcher studied the driver swings of pro golfers (both male and female) and noted that the "average" clubhead speed of the study group's driver swings peaked at 94% of the downswing period, and then decelerated slightly before impact.

-------------------------------------------------

Those graphs actually show a 'decrease' in the acceleration but an increase in speed into impact. For example, if the clubhead speed peaked at 94% of the downswing for Rickie Fowler and Jordan Spieth graphs then the slope of those brown graphs would be 'negative ' as they approached impact. Basically the magnitude of their positive acceleration is decreasing but they were still actually accelerating into impact.

DG

If the slope of the clubhead speed graph becomes more horizontal near impact, that means that the speed of acceleration (= slope of the graph) is decreasing. The speed of acceleration would only be zero if the slope was horizontal, and that does not happen in those two graphs.

So, I agree that the term "deceleration" does not mean a lack of forward speed acceleration. It means a decrease in the forward speed acceleration amount. Imagine a car constantly accelerating in a speed trial so that it reaches a 100mph speed at distance X from the start of the speed trial. If the car driver applies his brakes as he nears the end of his speed trial thereby decreasing his speed of acceleration as he gets closer to point X, the car may still be accelerating at point X, but its now under the influence of a "decelerating factor". That decelerating factor is what I mean by using the term "decelerating".

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks Dr Mann

DG