Getting the hands more forward at P6

[janik]

Jan 13, 2022 23:02:52 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Jan 13, 2022 18:28:10 GMT -5 janik said:

I’d like to add another question on this topic of maintaining more of PA2 until P6 and then achieving shaft lean at impact.

I experimented with a “unweighting” or what is sometimes referred to as the “Tiger squat” during the transition phase. Leaving aside whether this exactly follows good pelvic or GRF action, I did notice in my slow motion video that I had perfect PA2 retention (as per a pro golfer) and could achieve sometimes 14 deg of shaft lean with a short iron. It seems by having my hands significantly lower than normal, my brain figures out it can retain the release until later in the downswing. Conversely, if I force myself to NOT lower in transition, I have to flip at the ball without shaft lean just to hit it.

I would be interested in hearing if this “lowering”/“unweighting”/“squating” action is considered good practice.

Cheers
Janik.

Edit PS: I see in the other thread that Dr. Mann has already expressed his opinion on the benefits of unweighting using Sadlowski as an example!
So I will alter my question to him specifically; apart from having potential benefit, is this lowering action a fundamental part of enabling a golfer achieve shaft lean at impact? I was just watching the PGA event on TV and every golfers head noticeably lowers in transition.

I have never read/heard of the hypothetical idea that the squatting action that some pro golfers manifest during the hip-squaring phase between P4 => P5 can contribute to having more forward shaft lean at impact. If there is evidence that the hypothesis is true, then I would like to analyse the biomechanical reasoning behind such a hypothesis.

Although many pro golfers drop their head during the early downswing secondary to a significant degree of hip joint flexion (squatting), a significant number of pro golfers do not and I do not know of any deleterious effects of not squatting. I think that squatting is an optional choice.

Here are two examples of pro golfers whose head does not drop during their early downswing.

Luke List

Robert Rock

Jeff.

Hi Dr. Mann,

Well think of it from a purely logical point of view; to achieve say 15 deg of shaft lean (short irons) the handle must be lower at impact than it was at address (assuming we start with zero shaft lean at address). So overall, the hands must come through impact lower. The only options I see for this (while maintaining spinal posture) are to squat or to dislocate our shoulder joints, which doesn’t sound like a realistic option!

I put to you that the two example golfers you have above already start in what looks like a preset impact height, not to mention they are hitting woods so shaft lean is not desirable for launching the ball. All the slow mo videos I have on my phone (Tiger, Rory, Rose, Scott, DJ, Morikawa) display at least 4 inches of head lowering in transition, and that is more or less maintained through impact.

Cheers
Janik

[dubiousgolfer]

Hi Janik

I would have thought golfers who can get their right shoulder more downplane and not run out of right arm will be able to produce more forward shaft lean by impact (but I suspect ball position is also a factor).

DG

[janik]

Jan 14, 2022 8:14:28 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Hi Janik

I would have thought golfers who can get their right shoulder more downplane and not run out of right arm will be able to produce more forward shaft lean by impact (but I suspect ball position is also a factor).

DG

That’s true, DG, but I believe it is a case of chicken or the egg ie do we have the goal of getting or shoulder more down plane or does a lower hand path produce that outcome?

[imperfectgolfer]

Janik,

You wrote-: "Well think of it from a purely logical point of view; to achieve say 15 deg of shaft lean (short irons) the handle must be lower at impact than it was at address (assuming we start with zero shaft lean at address). So overall, the hands must come through impact lower. The only options I see for this (while maintaining spinal posture) are to squat or to dislocate our shoulder joints, which doesn’t sound like a realistic option!"

I think that you often fail to think deeply when you think about golf swing biomechanics.

For example, you are concluding that the lead hand must be lower at impact if a golfer has zero shaft lean at address, but then has 15 degree of forward shaft lean at impact. However, that incorrectly presumes that the lead hand is in the same position at impact as it was at address and that the degree of lead wrist ulnar deviation is the same.

The "real life" reality is that the hands are often higher at impact than they were at address - despite the fact that the golfer may have more forward shaft lean at impact.

Here is Dustin Johnson at address and at impact.

Note that DJ's lead arm is angled away from the target at address and that his hands are located just inside his lead thigh.

Note that DJ's lead arm is more vertical at impact  and that his hands are situated more forward and are inline with his lead mid-thigh.

Note that his lead hand is higher at impact than it was at address.

Here is Keegan Bradley at address and at impact.

Note that he has much more forward shaft lean at impact, and yet his hands are higher at impact.

You fail to take into account the angle of the lead arm at address and at impact - note that the lead arm is much more vertical at impact compared to address. You also fail to take into account the position of the lead shoulder at impact versus address, where the lead shoulder is higher thereby causing the lead hand to be pulled higher.

Finally, you do not take into account the accumulator #3 angle at impact versus address.

Here is Zach Johnson's clubshaft position at address and at impact.

The lower clubshaft is his clubshaft position at address, where his lead arm is more vertical and where his lead wrist is not ulnar-deviated.

The higher clubshaft is his clubshaft at impact, where his lead arm is more outstretched away from his body and where his lead wrist is much more ulnar-deviated.

Note that his hands are much higher at impact compared to their position at address.

What you cannot easily discern in this DTL image is that his lead hand is closer to the target at impact compared to address, and that his lead arm is less angled away from the target at impact when viewed from a face-on perspective - and that allows for more forward shaft lean at impact.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 14, 2022 8:14:28 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Hi Janik

I would have thought golfers who can get their right shoulder more downplane and not run out of right arm will be able to produce more forward shaft lean by impact (but I suspect ball position is also a factor).

DG

I disagree!

Many pro golfers get an adequate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though they have a propensity to "run-out-of-trail arm" pre-impact.

Here is VJ Singh at impact

Note that he has forward shaft lean at impact.

Note how his trail palm is not closely abutted against his lead thumb and that his trail wrist has straightened due to the fact that he has a degree of a "running-out-of-trail arm" phenomenon.

VJ often lets his trail palm lose contact with his lead thumb and the club handle through impact and that allows him to easily still get the appropriate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though his trail shoulder is very far back.

Jeff.

[janik]

Hi Dr. Mann,

You said: "I think that you often fail to think deeply when you think about golf swing biomechanics."

A bit hurtful; it is all relative. I feel that I think far more deeply than the average amateur golfer.

Thank you for explaining the hand height at address vs. impact with those examples, very clear.

Maybe you have a more correct explanation for my experiment: without un-weighting/squatting - I cast the club and reach impact with max 5 deg shaft lean (and "flip" through impact). When squatting in transition, I noticeably feel my hands are coming down lower, I then unload/push up to release the lagged club from about P5.5, achieving shaft lean. If it is unclear then I can make a video of both scenarios.

Janik

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 14, 2022 11:26:01 GMT -5 janik said:

Hi Dr. Mann,

You said: "I think that you often fail to think deeply when you think about golf swing biomechanics."

A bit hurtful; it is all relative. I feel that I think far more deeply than the average amateur golfer.

Thank you for explaining the hand height at address vs. impact with those examples, very clear.

Maybe you have a more correct explanation for my experiment: without un-weighting/squatting - I cast the club and reach impact with max 5 deg shaft lean (and "flip" through impact). When squatting in transition, I noticeably feel my hands are coming down lower, I then unload/push up to release the lagged club from about P5.5, achieving shaft lean. If it is unclear then I can make a video of both scenarios.

Janik

You definitely think more deeply about golf swing biomechanics than the average amateur golfer, and that explains why you are becoming a regular visitor to this golf forum.

I can easily understand why you may be able to avoid pre-impact flipping by adding a "squat move" in your early downswing. It probably allows you to get your hands lower and outside your trail thigh at P6 and thereby create a more U-shaped hand arc path. Then, you probably straighten your lead leg and elevate your lead shoulder starting at P5.5 and that allows your hand arc path to move slightly upwards between P6 => P7 so that you can get to an excellent impact alignment position with your hands more forward-and-higher at impact, and with more forward shaft lean.

However, many skilled pro golfers can get forward shaft lean at impact with minimal use of a "squat move", so it is difficult for me to assert that a "squat move" is absolutely required for a golfer to get forward shaft lean at impact. That particularly applies to short iron play where pro golfers often manifest their maximum amount of forward shaft lean, but with very little, if any, use of a "squat move".

Watch Jordan Spieth in this video - starting at the 18:16 minute time point.





Note that he generates a large amount of forward shaft lean at impact with no dropping of his head due to increased hip joint flexion in his early downswing.


Jeff.

[janik]

Thanks, Dr. Mann,

It is encouraging for me to see that you can see some validity in my newly found technique.

Not to sound doubtful, but seeing as though that clip of Spieth only started from the top of the backswing, I sought out further examples of his technique. I have found the same shot of him:

youtu.be/WJBRMWaU5_s

But this clip also has the real time DTL view at the start. Note that his head does drop an inch or two from the address position. You can use the bunker line as the reference.

I am not doubting you will be able to find examples to the contrary.

However I do feel this unweighting move in transition maybe more what is the key than the fact it may or may not cause significant lowering of the head. After all, one cannot jump up (clear the lead shoulder up) if one doesn’t first load down. At least I can’t!

[dubiousgolfer]

Jan 14, 2022 11:18:32 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Jan 14, 2022 8:14:28 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Hi Janik

I would have thought golfers who can get their right shoulder more downplane and not run out of right arm will be able to produce more forward shaft lean by impact (but I suspect ball position is also a factor).

DG

I disagree!

Many pro golfers get an adequate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though they have a propensity to "run-out-of-trail arm" pre-impact.

Here is VJ Singh at impact

Note that he has forward shaft lean at impact.

Note how his trail palm is not closely abutted against his lead thumb and that his trail wrist has straightened due to the fact that he has a degree of a "running-out-of-trail arm" phenomenon.

VJ often lets his trail palm lose contact with his lead thumb and the club handle through impact and that allows him to easily still get the appropriate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though his trail shoulder is very far back.

Jeff.

Dr Mann

What about his pelvis shift/rotating that will tend to move his lower and upper torso and swing centre (wherever that may be) targetwards.


  


Here is VJ at address and impact and although he's got slight forward lean at address it increases at impact .  I was able to magnify the images to 1000%, line them up almost exact and then draw a very thin vertical line around his left armpit area  (which unfortunately cannot be seen when I posted it ) .  I had to thicken the yellow line but you can easily see there is some drift targetwards by impact.




DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 14, 2022 13:03:06 GMT -5 janik said:

Thanks, Dr. Mann,

It is encouraging for me to see that you can see some validity in my newly found technique.

Not to sound doubtful, but seeing as though that clip of Spieth only started from the top of the backswing, I sought out further examples of his technique. I have found the same shot of him:

youtu.be/WJBRMWaU5_s

But this clip also has the real time DTL view at the start. Note that his head does drop an inch or two from the address position. You can use the bunker line as the reference.

I am not doubting you will be able to find examples to the contrary.

However I do feel this unweighting move in transition maybe more what is the key than the fact it may or may not cause significant lowering of the head. After all, one cannot jump up (clear the lead shoulder up) if one doesn’t first load down. At least I can’t!

You are being very nonchalant (careless) in your evaluation of swing videos when you claim that Spieth's head dropped 1-2" from its address position and that it is reflective of a "squat move".

Here are capture images from that Jordan Spieth wedge shot video.

Image 1 is at address. I have drawn a blue line at the corner angle of that bunker to assess the degree of camera shake. I have drawn a red line along the top of his head.

Image 2 is at P4. I have drawn a yellow line along the top of his head. The difference in height between the yellow line and the red line is partly due to a small degree of head dropping, but partly secondary to an artifact due to camera shake (note that the blue line is higher). The biomechanical reason that can explain why his head drops fractionally between P1 => P4 is to note that his lead knee joint is much more flexed. However, that does not mean that his degree of hip joint flexion has changed.

Image 3 is at P6. Note that his head has not dropped between P4 => P6 so there is no evidence that he is performing a "squat move" (which is primarily due to increased hip joint flexion) in his early downswing. Note that the blue line is even higher in image 3 compared to image 2, and that camera shake artifact phenomenon would exaggerate any head dropping appearance (due to a "squat move") if it was really happening, and there is no evidence that it's happening.

You are also making a mistake by using the address position as your reference point, when you should be using the P4 position as your reference because the "squat move" usually happens between P4 => P5. I can see no evidence that Spieth is increasing either his degree of hip joint flexion or knee joint flexion between P4 => P5.

To confirm the fact that Spieth's head is not dropping due to a "squat move" in his early downswing , consider these face-on capture images from the same golf swing action.

I have drawn a blue line over the top of the white hat of the spectator standing behind Spieth as a reference point to evaluate camera shake, and a red line over the top of Spieth's head at P4 (image 1).

Image 2 is at P5.5. Note that his head does not drop between P4 => P5.5 (and there is no evidence of a significant camera shake artifact problem).

I am not surprised that Spieth's head does not drop in his short iron shot of 85 yards. It is my experience that pro golfers have a very quiet pelvis/torso pivot motion when hitting short wedge shots.

You also wrote-: "After all, one cannot jump up (clear the lead shoulder up) if one doesn’t first load down. At least I can’t!"

I have no idea why you refer to the natural elevation of the lead shoulder (which happens in the P5 => P7 time period) as a "jump up" phenomenon.

Here is Luke List's downswing action.

Note that his lead shoulder at impact (image 4) is higher than it was at P5 (image 2), but it is not due to a "jumping up" phenomenon. It is simply due to straightening of of his lead leg that elevates the lead hip joint combined with a stretch-extension phenomenon of the lead side of his mid-upper torso. Also, he did not have to perform a "squat move" in order to elevate his lead shoulder during his later downswing.

I personally do not favor a "jumping up" phenomenon, which can potentially increase clubhead speed by a very small amount secondary to the phenomenon of parametric acceleration.

I do not object to the "squat move" if it is small in degree, and not exaggerated, because I perceive of it as a natural biomechanical phenomenon that pro golfers perform when trying to maximise their swing power when hitting a driver. I only object to an exaggerated "squat move" that is accompanied by an exaggerated "jumping up" move in the later downswing because it makes it more difficult to perfectly control the clubhead's motion in space during the downswing.

Here are capture images of Justin James golf swing action.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5 and image 3 is P7+.

Note that he has an exaggerated "squat move" between P4 => P5 and an exaggerated "jumping up" move between P5 => P7.

I can understand why a long-drive competitor may want to resort to those two exaggerated biomechanical moves in an attempt to maximise clubhead speed at impact, but it is problematic when it comes to optimally controlling the club during the P4 => P7 time period.

I much prefer the World Long Drive champion's (Tim Burke's) body motion during his downswing.

Note that his head only drops 1 - 2 inches between P4 (image 1) and P5 (image 2) due to his "squat move" and note that he gets his lead shoulder very high at impact (image 4) without any "jumping up" action.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 14, 2022 13:23:19 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Jan 14, 2022 11:18:32 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

I disagree!

Many pro golfers get an adequate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though they have a propensity to "run-out-of-trail arm" pre-impact.

Here is VJ Singh at impact

Note that he has forward shaft lean at impact.

Note how his trail palm is not closely abutted against his lead thumb and that his trail wrist has straightened due to the fact that he has a degree of a "running-out-of-trail arm" phenomenon.

VJ often lets his trail palm lose contact with his lead thumb and the club handle through impact and that allows him to easily still get the appropriate amount of forward shaft lean at impact even though his trail shoulder is very far back.

Jeff.

Dr Mann

What about his pelvis shift/rotating that will tend to move his lower and upper torso and swing centre (wherever that may be) targetwards.


  


Here is VJ at address and impact and although he's got slight forward lean at address it increases at impact .  I was able to magnify the images to 1000%, line them up almost exact and then draw a very thin vertical line around his left armpit area  (which unfortunately cannot be seen when I posted it ) .  I had to thicken the yellow line but you can easily see there is some drift targetwards by impact.




DG

I agree that VJ gets his forward shaft lean at impact by sliding his entire torso targetwards, and that allows him to still have his hands inside his lead thigh at impact. Many pro golfers do not allow their pelvis to slide targetwards during their downswing action so that the outer border of the lead pelvis gets outside the lead foot by impact, and they get forward shaft lean at impact by moving their lead hand more forward relative to their lead thigh.

Here are capture images of Keegan Bradley's golf swing.

Note that the outer border of his lead pelvis is no closer to the target at impact than it was at address, and it is well within the boundary of the outer border of his lead foot.

Note that he gets forward shaft lean at impact by having his lead hand positioned further targetwards relative to his lead thigh.

Jeff.

 

[utahgolfer]

Dr. Mann, I know you’ve covered this before in detail. Does Jon Rahm square the club face from p5.5 to p7 using only a moderate amount of left humerus CCW rotation with little or no left forearm supination? Isn’t this the only way he can maintain his forward shaft lean? For example, if he was to use uncontrolled left forearm supination wouldn’t this close his club face excessively and also minimize his forward shaft lean?

If this is accurate, do you think he activates his left forearm pronator muscles to limit any left forearm supination through the impact zone?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 21, 2022 21:50:08 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

Dr. Mann, I know you’ve covered this before in detail. Does Jon Rahm square the club face from p5.5 to p7 using only a moderate amount of left humerus CCW rotation with little or no left forearm supination? Isn’t this the only way he can maintain his forward shaft lean? For example, if he was to use uncontrolled left forearm supination wouldn’t this close his club face excessively and also minimize his forward shaft lean?

If this is accurate, do you think he activates his left forearm pronator muscles to limit any left forearm supination through the impact zone?

UG

No!

Jon Rahm uses a huge amount of lead forearm supination between P5.5 => P7 in order to square his clubface by impact - as proven by this 3D-graph.

The blue graph is his lead forearm supination graph and you can see how much, and how rapidly, he supinates his lead forearm in his later downswing. In fact, he has more lead forearm at impact (red dot) than he has at address and he needs that large amount of lead forearm supination to avoid having too much forward shaft lean at impact (due to his markedly bowed lead wrist which angles his clubshaft back away from the target).

The yellow arrow shows that he temporarily slows down his lead forearm supination between P7 => P7.2, but that happens post-impact. However, he is supinating very fast just before impact.

Here are face-on capture images of his golf swing action.

Look at his lower lead forearm's radial bone (just proximal to his proximal glove boundary) and note how much he is rotating it counterclockwise between P6.5 (image 1) and impact (image 4) - and it is secondary to lead forearm supination. If he didn't rotate his lead forearm that much, then he would have too much forward shaft lean at impact.

Jeff.

[janik]

Dr. Mann,

How is it possible that Rahm maintains his lead wrist flexion in spite of his relatively high club head speed? I can only demo such a feat at say quarter speed, and even then I can feel warning pain in my wrist that tells me not to keep doing it!

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 22, 2022 4:08:44 GMT -5 janik said:

Dr. Mann,

How is it possible that Rahm maintains his lead wrist flexion in spite of his relatively high club head speed? I can only demo such a feat at say quarter speed, and even then I can feel warning pain in my wrist that tells me not to keep doing it!

I suspect that it due to a combination of i) opening his torso through impact and not stalling the targetwards motion of his lead arm through impact; ii) a very flexible lead wrist combined with very strong lead forearm wrist flexor muscles; iii) and possibly due to the use-pattern of maintaining a bent trail wrist and a negative hand couple phenomenon through impact.

Jeff.