Getting the hands more forward at P6

[utahgolfer]

Dr. Mann, thank you for the refresher. This is very intriguing to me. I can see the back of JR's glove (and left radial bone) rotating, but it seems this amount of rotation is relatively small compared with other golfers depending on grip strength.

Take for example, Luke Donald (starting at the 0:26 second mark).

Compared with Rahm, Donald looks to have about 3-times more left forearm supination than does Rahm. From what I can see, Rahm uses just enough left forearm supination to square the club face, but it is slight compared with Donald.

A 3-D graph comparison between JR and LD, showing the timing and amount of lead forearm supination, would be interesting to see.

JR still retains a lot of forward shaft lean at p7, even though it does decrease some after p6.2. What degree loss of forward shaft lean do you see or measure from p6.2 to p7 for JR?

UG

[utahgolfer]

Hi Janik,

Maybe my last question to Dr. Mann is too self-evident to matter, but I think I have a helpful tip for maintaining more forward shaft lean. In Luke Donald’s swing he matches a large degree of backswing lead forearm pronation with an equal amount of downswing lead forearm supination. He comes into p7 with a high rate of club face closure and very little forward shaft lean. As some say, he fully “releases” the club coming into impact. But this isn’t what we want.

Jon Rahm does the opposite. His swing focuses mostly on lead wrist palmar flexion (wrist flexion or bowing). There is some left wrist hinging (radial or ulnar deviation) during his swing, but obviously it is his wrist flexion at p7 that promotes his forward shaft lean. Notice the green line on the 3-D graph shows a significant amount of left wrist flexion, well above the baseline, at p7.

JR’s left wrist flexion also helps him shallow the club shaft so less left wrist pronation is needed during the backswing and early downswing to keep the shaft on plane. This means less downswing left forearm supination is needed to square the club face. At p6.2, his hands are even with the ball and his club head is well behind the ball (p6.2). This is what we want!

A 3-D graph comparing DL’s and JR’s left wrist deviation, flexion/extension, and rotation would certainly show vast differences.

Okay, the first key is that everyone has a certain degree of lead wrist flexion (bowing) range of motion. JR has more than most, but this doesn’t matter that much. The key is to work with what you have. It doesn’t help to force it. Your maximum lead wrist flexion needs to be comfortable and pain-free. It’s not wise to copy JR or try to get as much as him, as you already know, unless it’s easy to do.

I think a good swing tip for performing proper swing wrist flexion is found in Hogan’s five lessons book. On page 67 he discusses the waggle, and this shows essentially how the lead wrist should look coming into impact with the knuckles pointing downward, the lead wrist still in flexion, and the club shaft angle backwards. But Hogan's waggle shows too much left forearm pronation. You should waggle with no left forearm rotation. All motion should come from left wrist flexion or bowing.



Step 1. Slow motion practice backswing. First, take a waggle similar to Hogan with only wrist flexion, your hands staying even with the ball, your knuckles pointing downward, and your shaft angling backward. Then take your backswing from this waggle position and pause at p4. Rotate your pelvis and torso as you normally would. As you swing to p4, keep the exact same waggle wrist position during the entire backswing. This means you should feel absolutely no motion in your wrists/forearms the entire backswing, even though based on JR’s 3-D graph we know there will be some radial deviation and forearm pronation. However, you should feel none. Simply maintain the same wrist flexion you preset in the waggle position. Do this a few times. It should feel like a very simple backswing.

Essentially, the preset waggle is just a simple way to say preset left wrist flexion. It’s the same thing. Just make sure to do it without any forearm rotation, only wrist flexion.

Step 2. Slow motion practice downswing. Again, begin from the preset waggle position, swing to p4, then slowly swing to p6.2. Rotate your pelvis and torso as you normally would, but simply return your hands to the same waggle position, with your hands even with the ball and the club shaft angled backward at about 6.2. Again, you should feel absolutely no motion in your wrists/forearms the entire downswing to p6.2. Do this a few times.

Step 3. Practice swings without stopping and with no release. Now take practice swings without stopping but hold your preset waggle position past p7 and all the way to p8. Start from the preset waggle position and keep it the same to p4, p6.2, p7, and p8, with no change. This reminds you of where you need to return to reach a correct p6.2 position, with the hands leading and even with the ball. Do this a few times.

Step 4. Practice swings with a mini-release like JR. This means the release happens after the hands are even with the ball. There will be some wrist release (left wrist ulnar deviation, extension, and supination) after p6.2, but you should hardly feel it. The main thought is to make sure the hands reach the ball before any letting go. And when hitting balls, you will feel the mini-release even less…it happens so fast it feels like there is no release. Essentially, the club’s momentum causes the mini-release (from p6.2 to p7) AFTER the hands are even with the ball. Any left wrist ulnar deviation, extension, or forearm supination occurs quickly and automatically.

On the other hand, a maxi-release is what LD does. It begins at p5 instead of p6.2. It is a primitive man response to hit the ball. It is an early release. It involves an enormous amount of left wrist ulnar deviation and left forearm supination beginning at p5. It leads to very little or no forward shaft lean. It seems like the best thing to do, but it’s not.

Step 5. Hit balls and see if you can do it. Start with half-swings, but always preset to the waggle position and begin your swing from there. Then progress to full swings, again using the preset waggle start position, and maintaining it until p6.2.

Eventually, you can blend the wrist flexion motion into your backswing without doing the preset waggle to start your swing. But until then continue to use the preset waggle to begin every swing, and don’t feel any more or less left wrist flexion until p7. (You might do a little left wrist extension after p6.2 but it won’t feel like it. It will feel like you maintain the same left wrist flexion or waggle preset position through impact.)

Hopefully, this will work for you. I think this release pattern is why JR is #1 in the world. It makes the swing so simple and reproduceable. It revolves around left wrist flexion and the obligatory club shaft angulation that goes with it. It produces ample forward shaft lean at impact with a mini-release that occurs quickly, automatically, and consistently.

Let me know how it goes for you and any tweaks that might make this tip better. I’m working on the same thing!

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "Compared with Rahm, Donald looks to have about 3-times more left forearm supination than does Rahm. From what I can see, Rahm uses just enough left forearm supination to square the club face, but it is slight compared with Donald."

I disagree!

I think that Luke use a slightly strong lead hand grip and he therefore uses less lead forearm supination than Jon Rahm during his PA#3 release action which happens pre-impact. Where do you see "evidence" that he is using more lead forearm supination in his late downswing's pre-impact time period?

You asked-: "JR still retains a lot of forward shaft lean at p7, even though it does decrease some after p6.2. What degree loss of forward shaft lean do you see or measure from p6.2 to p7 for JR?"

I don't know how it is possible to measure the degree of forward shaft lean during the clubshaft's travel time between P6.2 => P7.

Jeff.

[janik]

UG,

Many thanks for taking the time to write such detailed advice, much appreciated. I will practice as you suggest and report back.

Cheers
Janik

[utahgolfer]

Janik, I'm only recommending as I learn. It's a work in progress. We both may need to weaken our grips closer to JR for this to work, so the club face isn't too closed at impact. Dr. Mann is correct that this wouldn't work for someone with a strong lead hand grip. So far, I have hit only indoor net shots and it seems to work great. But I may have to adjust my left hand to a bit weaker position if I have any hooking issues. In any event, it is fun to experiment and try to be like JR.

Dr. Mann, LD does have a stronger grip than JR, but I still see LD displaying a lot of left forearm pronation in the backswing and a matching amount of left forearm supination in his downswing. In any event, LD releases his angles much sooner than JR in his downswing with LD and JR looking totally different from p5 to p7, which is what really matters.

To measure shaft lean differences from p6.2 to p7, simply measure the angle between the left arm and club shaft at p6.2, and record that angle. Then do the same at p7. The difference in angles would show the loss of forward shaft lean between the two. The same could be done comparing p5, p5.5, p6, p6.5, and p7. The difference between JR and LD would be stark.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "To measure shaft lean differences from p6.2 to p7, simply measure the angle between the left arm and club shaft at p6.2, and record that angle. Then do the same at p7. The difference in angles would show the loss of forward shaft lean between the two. The same could be done comparing p5, p5.5, p6, p6.5, and p7. The difference between JR and LD would be stark."

How do you measure that angle at P6.2? It could theoretically be done with a 3D system, but that angle does not only depend on the degree of lead wrist flexion and it is also influenced by the degree of lead forearm supination, which is changing continuously between P6.2 => P7.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

True, it’s usually more complicated than I think. However, it’s easy to see that JR gives up much less forward shaft lean than LD from p5 to p7. Getting his hands even with the ball with some retained wrist flexion and accompanying club shaft angulation is the key.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 23, 2022 17:29:13 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

True, it’s usually more complicated than I think. However, it’s easy to see that JR gives up much less forward shaft lean than LD from p5 to p7. Getting his hands even with the ball with some retained wrist flexion and accompanying club shaft angulation is the key.

UG

A golfer who uses the intact LFFW/GFLW technique does not have forward shaft lean at impact due to a significant amount of lead wrist flexion, but only due to coming into impact with slightly less lead forearm supination - as seen in the following capture images of Henrik Stenson - and that does not imply that he is signifiicantly disadvantaged.





Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

That makes sense. It seems like a player can enjoy forward shaft lean three ways. One way is to have perfect timing with passive arms and wrists. The FSL happens as a consequence of the perfect kinematic sequence. The second way is more active by producing a very stable lead wrist using wrist flexion. It seems like JR could achieve FSL regardless of his kinematic sequence. But he turns his pelvis and torso to add speed and promote a correct swing path. A third way is using a very strong grip which sets up a FSL bias based on the grip, and this makes it easier for them to also enjoy FSL with less than ideal timing.

Do you agree that a left forearm flying wedge swing is more timing dependent in achieving FSL compared with the other two examples?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 24, 2022 13:43:01 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

That makes sense. It seems like a player can enjoy forward shaft lean three ways. One way is to have perfect timing with passive arms and wrists. The FSL happens as a consequence of the perfect kinematic sequence. The second way is more active by producing a very stable lead wrist using wrist flexion. It seems like JR could achieve FSL regardless of his kinematic sequence. But he turns his pelvis and torso to add speed and promote a correct swing path. A third way is using a very strong grip which sets up a FSL bias based on the grip, and this makes it easier for them to also enjoy FSL with less than ideal timing.

Do you agree that a left forearm flying wedge swing is more timing dependent in achieving FSL compared with the other two examples?

UG

No.

I think that Jon Rahm has to get perfect timing of his lead forearm supinatory action in order to get his clubface square at impact, which is simultaneously combined with his exactly desired amount of forward shaft lean at impact - and the same applies to Henrik Stenson who gets his exactly desired amount of forward shaft lean at impact using a minimally flexed lead wrist (while Jon Rahm has a significantly more flexed lead wrist which requires more lead forearm supination). Both have to time their PA#3 release action with absolute perfection.

A golfer, who adopts a very strong lead hand grip, has less lead forearm supination happening during his PA#3 release action, but he still has to time it with perfection.

Here is Jamie Sadlowski's lead forearm supination graph.





He has less lead forearm supination happening in his later downswing so it is presumably easier for him to time his PA#3 release action, but he still has to perfectly time his PA#2 release action (red graph) to get exactly the desired amount of forward shaft lean at impact.

Jeff.

[janik]

UG,

Your advice above on feeling the wrist waggle has been a revelation in how I conceptually swing a golf club!

Take a short chip shot, say back to shaft parallel and through; previously my wrists would ‘hinge’ and forearms rotate so that the club was more or less toe up at parallel. Using the waggle type feel without feeling forearm rotation (the lead arm noticeably rotates in reality), the club face is now ‘square’ to the arc. I don’t feel any need to ‘recover’ the face. It is trivially easy to just rotate through the shot while feeling like I maintain this waggle position. The result is low trajectory pitch shots (previously my launch angle would be 40-45 deg, now it is below 30 which is what the tour players do).

I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6, but I can’t think of any disadvantages to being in a squarer position at this point? Assuming one has the capability to rotate it through impact (I’m quite athletic).

Interested in hearing if I’m way off the mark!

Cheers
Janik

[utahgolfer]

Dr. Mann, my question wasn’t so much if the other two methods were timing dependent but rather if the LFFW method required perfect timing and passive arms to enjoy forward shaft lean?

And whether the other two methods inherently bias more FSL because they promote club shaft angulation, understanding that lead arm supination could negate it.

And whether the other two methods do not require passive arms like the LFFW to enjoy FSL?

I did appreciate your answer however. I do agree that all methods require perfect timing to hit straight and powerful shots.

Janik,

I’m glad that helped! As Dr Mann has pointed out there is plenty of inherent motion in the wrists and forearms. However, like you experienced it helps to not promote too much wrist and forearm motion. Consequently, it helps to feel like everything is constant from the waggle position to p3 for a half shot or p4 for a full shot. I think as golfers we want to feel like we are doing something so we tend to overdo it and move the wrists and forearms too much, when we should let the inherent motion do what is needed.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Janik,


You wrote-: "Take a short chip shot, say back to shaft parallel and through; previously my wrists would ‘hinge’ and forearms rotate so that the club was more or less toe up at parallel. Using the waggle type feel without feeling forearm rotation (the lead arm noticeably rotates in reality), the club face is now ‘square’ to the arc. I don’t feel any need to ‘recover’ the face. It is trivially easy to just rotate through the shot while feeling like I maintain this waggle position. The result is low trajectory pitch shots (previously my launch angle would be 40-45 deg, now it is below 30 which is what the tour players do).

I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6, but I can’t think of any disadvantages to being in a squarer position at this point? Assuming one has the capability to rotate it through impact (I’m quite athletic)."

That approach is very desirable for a short chip shot where the hands never go higher than waist level in the backswing and if there is very little lead wrist upcocking motion.

However, for a full golf swing action, there is no definite advantage to keeping the clubface square to the clubhead path between P1 => P2. One can choose to do that if one prefers to use the one-piece takeaway combined with a delayed lead wrist upcocking action. However, if one prefers to use the RFT takeaway variation with an early lead wrist upcocking action (using a weak/neutral lead hand grip), then it is very natural for the toe of the club to be pointing straight up at the P2 position.

Jeff.

[janik]

Jan 24, 2022 19:27:09 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Janik,


You wrote-: "Take a short chip shot, say back to shaft parallel and through; previously my wrists would ‘hinge’ and forearms rotate so that the club was more or less toe up at parallel. Using the waggle type feel without feeling forearm rotation (the lead arm noticeably rotates in reality), the club face is now ‘square’ to the arc. I don’t feel any need to ‘recover’ the face. It is trivially easy to just rotate through the shot while feeling like I maintain this waggle position. The result is low trajectory pitch shots (previously my launch angle would be 40-45 deg, now it is below 30 which is what the tour players do).

I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6, but I can’t think of any disadvantages to being in a squarer position at this point? Assuming one has the capability to rotate it through impact (I’m quite athletic)."

That approach is very desirable for a short chip shot where the hands never go higher than waist level in the backswing and if there is very little lead wrist upcocking motion.

However, for a full golf swing action, there is no definite advantage to keeping the clubface square to the clubhead path between P1 => P2. One can choose to do that if one prefers to use the one-piece takeaway combined with a delayed lead wrist upcocking action. However, if one prefers to use the RFT takeaway variation with an early lead wrist upcocking action (using a weak/neutral lead hand grip), then it is very natural for the toe of the club to be pointing straight up at the P2 position.

Jeff.

Thanks Dr. Mann.

Although I did state that I was keeping the club face squarer to the arc up to P2, what I meant to describe was having that wrist action feeling on the way down at P6! The stronger club face feels much less like a swipe motion across the ball with a forced forearm roll. Having the stronger face still induces the release of PA3 (as the face is not truly 'square') but without any swipe feeling. It is more of a direct blow from the inside, for want of a better description. I can still achieve a radial deviation to 0 degrees despite keeping the club face in this strong position.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 25, 2022 8:02:40 GMT -5 janik said:

Jan 24, 2022 19:27:09 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Janik,


You wrote-: "Take a short chip shot, say back to shaft parallel and through; previously my wrists would ‘hinge’ and forearms rotate so that the club was more or less toe up at parallel. Using the waggle type feel without feeling forearm rotation (the lead arm noticeably rotates in reality), the club face is now ‘square’ to the arc. I don’t feel any need to ‘recover’ the face. It is trivially easy to just rotate through the shot while feeling like I maintain this waggle position. The result is low trajectory pitch shots (previously my launch angle would be 40-45 deg, now it is below 30 which is what the tour players do).

I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6, but I can’t think of any disadvantages to being in a squarer position at this point? Assuming one has the capability to rotate it through impact (I’m quite athletic)."

That approach is very desirable for a short chip shot where the hands never go higher than waist level in the backswing and if there is very little lead wrist upcocking motion.

However, for a full golf swing action, there is no definite advantage to keeping the clubface square to the clubhead path between P1 => P2. One can choose to do that if one prefers to use the one-piece takeaway combined with a delayed lead wrist upcocking action. However, if one prefers to use the RFT takeaway variation with an early lead wrist upcocking action (using a weak/neutral lead hand grip), then it is very natural for the toe of the club to be pointing straight up at the P2 position.

Jeff.

Thanks Dr. Mann.

Although I did state that I was keeping the club face squarer to the arc up to P2, what I meant to describe was having that wrist action feeling on the way down at P6! The stronger club face feels much less like a swipe motion across the ball with a forced forearm roll. Having the stronger face still induces the release of PA3 (as the face is not truly 'square') but without any swipe feeling. It is more of a direct blow from the inside, for want of a better description. I can still achieve a radial deviation to 0 degrees despite keeping the club face in this strong position.

What you seem to be describing is the "reverse motorcycle move".

You can optionally use that particular move if your want, but I know of no advantage to its use.

You also wrote-: "I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6."

What bothers me about that statement, is the use of the word "recover". It implies that having the toe up at P6 is not normal/expected. However, I believe that it must naturally happen if a golfer uses a weak/neutral lead hand grip and an intact LFFW/GFLW technique - like Henrik Stenson, Rory McIlroy, Justin Rose and Adam Scott, who all have their clubface toe up at P6. Also, it should not predispose to a "forced" forearm roll if one is performing a PA#3 release action naturally.

Adam Scott at P6 (image 4)

Even Mike Malaska has his clubface's toe up at P6 in his "real life" golf swing action despite the fact that he rigidly teaches the "reverse motorcyle move" as part of his golf swing teaching philosophy.

Jeff.