Getting the hands more forward at P6

[utahgolfer]

Janik, all that really matters is what works best for you. Doing too much or too little lead forearm rotation is a common problem. Using too much lead forearm rotation, the swing usually feels sloppy with too much motion, sending the ball too high. Using too little and the swing feels contrived with too little motion, often leading to mishits and poor distance control. Another problem is doing too much lead wrist radial deviation and not enough lead wrist flexion.

That is why I like to practice from the waggle position with lead wrist flexion set and the club head a few inches off the ground. Then all you have to do is keep the wrists/forearms constant as you swing to your desired backswing height. This works well because any motion during the actual swing is minimized with most wrist motion occurring to set the waggle position before the swing.

Too set the waggle position, you should feel only wrist flexion (keeping the knuckles down as you set the trail hand angle) with essentially no lead wrist radial deviation or up-cocking.

Swing errors are made in the swing without realizing it. Swinging from the set waggle position helps the golfer see a whole new perspective and oftentimes helps to eliminate unnecessary motion or swing errors.

UG

[utahgolfer]

Janik, anyone who wishes to use more wrist flexion during their swing in hopes of promoting more forward shaft lean needs to use a weak grip and have strong forearms. A lead wrist bowed into flexion shortens and weakens the forearm wrist flexor muscles. Consequently, when bowing the lead wrist, a player must have enough wrist flexor muscle strength to maintain control the golf club throughout the swing. Strong forearm flexor muscles also help to minimize wrist and hand injuries.

My guess is that Jon Rahm and Jordan Spieth have strong wrist flexor muscles, both when the lead wrist is neutral and when it is fully flexed.

I need to strengthen my forearm wrist flexor muscles through a full range of motion if I hope to use a weak grip and use more wrist flexion.

This is the Captain of Crunch gripper I use often.

When I use it with a neutral wrist position, I have plenty of strength. I’ll do many sets of 10 repetitions. However, when I flex or bow my wrist, I can’t even do one repetition. When in a flexed wrist position, with shortened wrist flexor muscles, my strength is probably half of what it is when my wrist is neutral.

Currently, I’m starting to squeeze a racquetball with my wrist fully flexed. I try to do several sets of 10 repetitions. I may get a less intense Captain of Crunch gripper that I can use when my wrist is in full flexion.

Over time this will strengthen my wrist flexor muscle across a full range of motion. It will make it possible for me to bow my wrist during the swing if I decide to go in that direction. It will also reduce my wrist or hand injury regardless of how I swing the golf club.

UG

[janik]

Jan 25, 2022 10:31:17 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

What you seem to be describing is the "reverse motorcycle move".

You can optionally use that particular move if your want, but I know of no advantage to its use.

You also wrote-: "I am sure there are examples of players that can somehow recover a toe up club face at P6."

What bothers me about that statement, is the use of the word "recover". It implies that having the toe up at P6 is not normal/expected. However, I believe that it must naturally happen if a golfer uses a weak/neutral lead hand grip and an intact LFFW/GFLW technique - like Henrik Stenson, Rory McIlroy, Justin Rose and Adam Scott, who all have their clubface toe up at P6. Also, it should not predispose to a "forced" forearm roll if one is performing a PA#3 release action naturally.

Adam Scott at P6 (image 4)

Even Mike Malaska has his clubface's toe up at P6 in his "real life" golf swing action despite the fact that he rigidly teaches the "reverse motorcyle move" as part of his golf swing teaching philosophy.

Jeff.

Hi Dr. Mann,

I am not able to explain it, but my toe does also appear toe up at P6 despite me feeling it stronger! I think it has to do with the amount of trail arm forearm pronation. I am now able to fully hinge to shaft parallel without supination of the trail arm - or at least very little - for this to work I need a lot more extension in my trail wrist than I normally feel. I know you dispute this but my palm "feels" more on top of the shaft - does that make sense? 

Re: 'reverse motorcycle move' Look at the photo no. 2 of Adam Scott above. You can see the logo part of his lead hand glove, and the trail palm is facing us (the camera), surely that is not possible without some form of shaft twist caused by increased trail wrist extension?

Thanks
Janik

[janik]

Jan 25, 2022 22:37:06 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

Janik, anyone who wishes to use more wrist flexion during their swing in hopes of promoting more forward shaft lean needs to use a weak grip and have strong forearms. A lead wrist bowed into flexion shortens and weakens the forearm wrist flexor muscles. Consequently, when bowing the lead wrist, a player must have enough wrist flexor muscle strength to maintain control the golf club throughout the swing. Strong forearm flexor muscles also help to minimize wrist and hand injuries.

My guess is that Jon Rahm and Jordan Spieth have strong wrist flexor muscles, both when the lead wrist is neutral and when it is fully flexed.

I need to strengthen my forearm wrist flexor muscles through a full range of motion if I hope to use a weak grip and use more wrist flexion.

This is the Captain of Crunch gripper I use often.

When I use it with a neutral wrist position, I have plenty of strength. I’ll do many sets of 10 repetitions. However, when I flex or bow my wrist, I can’t even do one repetition. When in a flexed wrist position, with shortened wrist flexor muscles, my strength is probably half of what it is when my wrist is neutral.

Currently, I’m starting to squeeze a racquetball with my wrist fully flexed. I try to do several sets of 10 repetitions. I may get a less intense Captain of Crunch gripper that I can use when my wrist is in full flexion.

Over time this will strengthen my wrist flexor muscle across a full range of motion. It will make it possible for me to bow my wrist during the swing if I decide to go in that direction. It will also reduce my wrist or hand injury regardless of how I swing the golf club.

UG

Thanks, UG,

You are touching on a subject that I often wondered - how it physically feels impossible for me to maintain wrist flexion in the downswing. I can swing a 7 iron at 90 mph fairly easily, but the club head rushes past my hands before the impact area. For me speed comes naturally as a break-down of the wrist, for today's top tour pros it seems to come without a break-down somehow. I guess really strong forearms/flexor muscles is likely the difference, which comes with swinging a club your whole life, unlike me.

I would appreciate if you could share your experience of any lasting improvements you have had ie have you gone from 0 deg shaft lean to 10 deg. 

Cheers
Janik

[utahgolfer]

Hi Janik,

One reason I experiment a lot with different swing ideas is that I love to learn and hope to somehow improve. Most swing change experiments don’t last very long because I either play worse or it leads to an injury. But it’s still fun to do anyway.

A bowed wrist feels great, but by just doing practice swings I can see it’s not going to work because of the stress it puts on my ulnar wrist border.

Here is an explanation (taken from www.hss.edu/golfportal/tfcc-sprain-tears-in-the-golfer.htm):

“The wrist is made up of the ends of the forearm bones (ulna and radius) and eight small bones called carpals. The radius, which is located on the thumb side, forms a joint directly with the wrist bones, but the ulna, which is on the pinky side, does not. Instead, a hammock-like structure made up of cartilage and ligaments called the triangular fibrocartilage complex (TFCC), joins the end of the forearm to the small wrist bones on the pinky side. The cartilage of the complex is in the shape of a triangular disc.

“The TFCC stabilizes the bones in the wrist, acts as a shock absorber and enables smooth movements. However, the cartilage and ligaments of the complex are prone to degeneration and wear-and-tear injuries. This can lead to pain, weakness, and instability.

“The TFCC can be strained or torn from over-swinging or from grounding the golf club forcefully, causing pain. The wrists are locked when you hold a club, but once the club swings, the wrist movement may cause pain in the TFCC region. Also, a sudden injury to the pinky side of the wrist may sprain or tear the TFCC.”

For me, bowing the wrist compresses or pinches the TFCC much more than a neutral or straight wrist position. The bowed position puts a lot more stress and strain on my TFCC.

So, to bow the lead wrist during the swing, you need strong lead wrist forearm flexor muscles and a very stable TFCC region to handle the added stress and pinching. I can exercise to build up my forearm muscles, but it is much trickier to increase the stability of my TFCC to decrease any injury risk. An injury to the TFCC is common in golf and can take months to recover from.

So, I’m out of this swing change experiment. I learned a lot but need to move on. One thing I do need to do though is exercise my wrists/forearms in more than just the neutral position, and make sure I have plenty of strength when the wrists are bowed or extended, which can decrease injury risk.

What’s next? I would like a better drive-hold release pattern. A couple of years ago, I played quite a while with more of a hold-off or drive-hold release. It worked well and I had good accuracy. However, I developed some elbow pain, so I stopped doing it. But my accuracy hasn’t been as good, so I have been searching for ways to make my wrist release more stable through impact. That’s why I recently started looking into bowing my wrists with more forward shaft lean.

My next idea is to try the Jordan Spieth move and let my lead elbow flex more through impact and into the follow-through.

Perhaps this will take the stress off my lead elbow while allowing for a better drive-hold release pattern. I assume this is why JS swings this way.

I need to find a way to get a more stable release pattern from p7 to p9. Maybe maintaining a flexed elbow through the impact zone will help.

I’m playing golf with Dr. Mann this weekend, so I’ll let you know how it goes.

PS: I should add that there are two main destroyers of a drive-hold release action: 1) running out of right arm after p6.5, and 2) adding a push force to the back of the club with the right hand between p4 and p6.5. I always need to avoid these two issues. If I'm turning well with my pelvis and torso it gets my right shoulder forward and low enough so I don't run out of right arm. If I keep my right hand passive and only rely on PA4 to drive the swing I avoid any early flip release. But I still like to stack the odds in my favor. That's why I like to make sure I hold an active drive-hold release even if those two destroyers are not perfect. 

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "My next idea is to try the Jordan Spieth move and let my lead elbow flex more through impact and into the follow-through."

I think that's a really bad idea because it will slow down the speed of motion of the lead hand between P7 => P7.2 and make a good quality drive-holding action less possible. One needs to maintain the targetward speed of motion of the lead hand between P7 => P7.2 in order to become a skilled DHer.

Here are capture images of Jordan Spieth performing a non-DH hand release action.

Note that he reaches impact (image 1) with minimal chicken-winging of his lead arm.

Then he chicken-wings his lead arm far more than usual, which causes the lead forearm/lead hand to move targetwards less fast than his lead upper arm, and the subsequent slowing of his lead hand motion allows the clubshaft to bypass his lead arm in a non-DH hand release manner (which is atypical for him).

Here is Jordan Spieth's usual DH-hand release action.

Note that he has minimal chicken-winging of his lead arm at impact and it does not increase in degree between P7 => P7.4.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Dr. Mann, I can see your point. It's probably only a good idea when chipping or for short irons, for those who like to do it, when the swing speed is much lower.

Okay, here a question for you. I think this still applies to the topic of forward shaft lean.

I've heard instructors talk about the motion of the lead shoulder at the p4 transition, and how it should initially move downward and a little inward, but not upward until about p4.5. Do you agree with this?

A swing fault of mine is that I sometimes move my lead shoulder upward immediately at p4 which throws my head slightly rearward (away from the target) which puts my right arm at a disadvantage since the distance from the ball to my rear shoulder increases (compared to doing it correctly). In turn, this makes it easier for me to run out of right arm before p6.5, supinate my lead forearm, and early wrist flip with a hand cross-over release instead of a drive-hold release with forward shaft lean.

What should a golfer do movement-wise to ensure his lead shoulder doesn't move upward prematurely from p4 to p4.5?

Is the best approach to turn the pelvis and mid-torso CCW and simultaneously swing the arms downward to p4.5 with as little shoulder-turning motion as possible until the hands are at about p4.5? If so, would a good drill be to swing to p4, pause, and then turn the pelvis and mid-torso CCW as much as possible with no shoulder motion, and to this over and over?

Do you have any other ideas or possible drills that might help?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You asked-: "I've heard instructors talk about the motion of the lead shoulder at the p4 transition, and how it should initially move downward and a little inward, but not upward until about p4.5. Do you agree with this?"

The lead shoulder should only move upwards after P5.2/5.5.

The reason why it moves upwards too soon is due to premature activation of the upper torso motion. If the lead shoulder is rotated clockwise enough by P4 then it should move slightly upwards between P3.5 => P4, and if the pelvis rotates first before the upper torso, then the lead shoulder should move slightly downwards before it moves targetwards.

You asked-: "Is the best approach to turn the pelvis and mid-torso CCW and simultaneously swing the arms downward to p4.5 with as little shoulder-turning motion as possible until the hands are at about p4.5? If so, would a good drill be to swing to p4, pause, and then turn the pelvis and mid-torso CCW as much as possible with no shoulder motion, and to this over and over?"

Yes - if one has the requisite hula-hula flexibility to allow for that degree of dynamic torso-pelvic separation.

Jeff.

[ddono]

So in your downswing section 8a,you talk about how two individuals who claim there is lag tension up until impact are wrong. If the angular velocity is increasing, all be it a little slower than earlier in the downswing, it is still accelerating, so why wouldn’t there be positive lag pressure and shaft bend? I always though the forward bend of the shaft you see in stills from videos had to do with how the pixels were populated from top to bottom in basic cameras.

[imperfectgolfer]

May 1, 2022 19:19:28 GMT -5 ddono said:

So in your downswing section 8a,you talk about how two individuals who claim there is lag tension up until impact are wrong. If the angular velocity is increasing, all be it a little slower than earlier in the downswing, it is still accelerating, so why wouldn’t there be positive lag pressure and shaft bend? I always though the forward bend of the shaft you see in stills from videos had to do with how the pixels were populated from top to bottom in basic cameras.

You wrote that if the clubhead's angular velocity is increasing in the later downswing that it means that the clubhead is still being accelerated. That's true. However, what is causing that clubhead acceleration between P6 => P7? It is not due to the lead hand steadily pulling the club handle down the hand arc path (which applies to the P4 => P6 time period) and which causally creates the phenomenon of lag tension, but it due to the physics causing the release of PA#2.

Here is Kwon's graph of the forces operating at the level of the club handle.

Note that the moment produced by the net mid-hand force changes from clockwise to counterclockwise at the ~P5.5 position. That phenomenon causes the clubhead to speed up even though the lead arm/hand's angular velocity slows down by ~25% after P5.5. In other words, if the lead hand that is supposedly responsible for generating lag tension all the way to impact (according to TGM literalists like the "Swing Engineer) is actually slowing down between P5.5 => P7, then how can it be generating lag tension in the later downswing just before impact?

Here is capture images of Rory McIlroy's driver swing.

Note that his clubshaft is bent back at P5 (image 2) and at P5.5 (image 3) which means that lag tension exists.

However, note that his clubshaft is bent forward at P6.5, which means that a negative torque scenario (negative lag tension) exists. That forward peripheral clubshaft bending is "real" and not due to camera distortion due to the rolling camera shutter effect (which plagues poor quality video cameras that markedly exaggerate the degree of forward bending).

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

May 1, 2022 19:19:28 GMT -5 ddono said:

So in your downswing section 8a,you talk about how two individuals who claim there is lag tension up until impact are wrong. If the angular velocity is increasing, all be it a little slower than earlier in the downswing, it is still accelerating, so why wouldn’t there be positive lag pressure and shaft bend? I always though the forward bend of the shaft you see in stills from videos had to do with how the pixels were populated from top to bottom in basic cameras.

Hi ddono

Check out Dr Mann's topic 5  " How does a pro golfer, who uses a TGM swinging technique, generate swing power during his driver's downswing?"

www.perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm#topic5

You will see this image below and a red graph describing the magnitude of the hand couple .




At approx P6  (club parallel to ground) the hand couple is zero and about to go negative for the rest of the downswing to impact. Further, the clubhead speed increases due to a net eccentric force (ie. meaning it does not pass through the COM of the club)  applied via the hands  which causes a 'Moment of Force' which can angularly accelerate the club.

See this 'Intro to Club Kinetics' video by Dr Sasho MacKenzie which explains the MOF (Moment of Force) concept .




DG