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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 13, 2013 23:08:18 GMT -5
Rolling? Flipping? None of the above??
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 13, 2013 23:14:29 GMT -5
Luke: rolling or flipping?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 13, 2013 23:19:25 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this comparative image. Amazing!!! The concept of lag is a pre-impact phenomenon and it also has nothing to do with the degree of verticality of the left arm in the late downswing (KO has her left arm vertical simply because she has her hands well forward at the P6.7 position) and it has nothing to do with any post-impact phenomenon (KS is already post-impact at P7.1). Lag is generally measured as the angle between the left arm and clubshaft pre-impact, and from a a quantitative perspective, it is often measured at P5.5 or P6 if you want to differentiate between a random release versus a late release action. Regarding this series of photos. I can accept that MW and PC may have visual evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion, so I could then label them as flippers, but I cannot see any dorsiflexion of NG's left wrist so she could just be rolling. I will be willing to label KS a flip-roller only if you can show that he bends (dorsiflexes) his FLW while he rolls post-impact. You have not shown an image where he clearly bends (dorsiflexes) his left wrist between P7 and P7.2. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 13, 2013 23:26:21 GMT -5
Amazing!!! Kelli has 52 degrees more lag at left arm vertical. If you flip like Shields, all your lag is gone by then, and more. Make up all the silly rules you want (it's a pre-impact phenomena! measured at P6!), Kelli has retained her lag and Kevin has flipped it away.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 13, 2013 23:30:04 GMT -5
I will be willing to label KS a flip-roller only if you can show that he bends (dorsiflexes) his FLW while he rolls post-impact. You have not shown an image where he clearly bends (dorsiflexes) his left wrist between P7 and P7.2.
Jeff. Make up whatever definitions you want. Just don't claim your definitions are universal. Within my set of definitions, he flips and rolls.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 13, 2013 23:40:26 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Make up whatever definitions you want. Just don't claim your definitions are universal. Within my set of definitions, he flips and rolls."
I never stated that my definition of flipping (= left wrist bending) is universal. However, I find your definition of flipping (measuring left arm/clubshaft angle post-impact from a face-on perspective) useless because it cannot clearly differentiate between rolling versus flipping. I think that Luke Donald has a FLW in those posted images, so he cannot be flipping - even you choose to label him a flipper because the clubhead is ahead of the hands post-impact.
Jeff.
p.s. You must be experiencing considerable "angst" to be up so late in order to produce so many posts - considering that you live in a EST time zone.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 14, 2013 8:21:20 GMT -5
Jeffy obviously has a different definition of flipping than me because I cannot accept that a golfer (who has a neutral left hand grip) is flipping at impact if he maintains a FLW and if he doesn't bend (dorsiflex) his lead wrist. Jeffy has posted many photos of PGA /LPGA tour golfers implying that those professional golfers (both male and female) are flip-rollers. However, he has not shown that KS is any worse than those PGA/LPGA tour golfers - and yet he originally claimed regarding KS's swing-: "Good luck finding a flip/roll like this on the PGA tour. They don't make it to that level."
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 14, 2013 8:43:34 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " Amazing!!! Kelli has 52 degrees more lag at left arm vertical. If you flip like Shields, all your lag is gone by then, and more. Make up all the silly rules you want (it's a pre-impact phenomena! measured at P6!), Kelli has retained her lag and Kevin has flipped it away." It is ridiculous to state that KS has "flipped his lag away" at left arm vertical because the left arm is usually vertical at low point (which is very close to the impact ball position if the ball is placed at/near low point). In this image, KS has no flipping at impact (image 1) - and his clubshaft is straight-in-line with his left arm. Here is Kelli Oride at impact. Her clubshaft is also nearly straight-in-line with her near-vertical left arm. The only difference is that KO has placed the ball slightly forward of low point and her hands are slightly ahead of low point (ahead of her left shoulder socket) at impact. KO has no more lag at impact than KS. By the way, I only recommend measuring the actual degree of lag to determine when the club first starts to release and it usually starts to release between P5.5 and P6 in golfers who use a random release action. Measuring the degree of lag has nothing to do with the topic of flipping at impact. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 14, 2013 17:25:54 GMT -5
Jeffy obviously has a different definition of flipping than me because I cannot accept that a golfer (who has a neutral left hand grip) is flipping at impact if he maintains a FLW and if he doesn't bend (dorsiflex) his lead wrist. Jeffy has posted many photos of PGA /LPGA tour golfers implying that those professional golfers (both male and female) are flip-rollers. However, he has not shown that KS is any worse than those PGA/LPGA tour golfers - and yet he originally claimed regarding KS's swing-: " Good luck finding a flip/roll like this on the PGA tour. They don't make it to that level." Jeff. Wrong. NONE of the PGA/LPGA players posted are flip/rollers. They are either flippers or rollers. Kevin is a flip/roller.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 14, 2013 17:28:18 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " Make up whatever definitions you want. Just don't claim your definitions are universal. Within my set of definitions, he flips and rolls." I never stated that my definition of flipping (= left wrist bending) is universal. However, I find your definition of flipping (measuring left arm/clubshaft angle post-impact from a face-on perspective) useless because it cannot clearly differentiate between rolling versus flipping. I think that Luke Donald has a FLW in those posted images, so he cannot be flipping - even you choose to label him a flipper because the clubhead is ahead of the hands post-impact.Jeff. p.s. You must be experiencing considerable "angst" to be up so late in order to produce so many posts - considering that you live in a EST time zone. I did not label Luke a "flipper". He is obviously a roller. Pure rollers look like drive/holders at impact. Flip/rollers like Kevin look like a flipper at impact.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 14, 2013 17:35:21 GMT -5
Kelli v. Shields: 1. Shields loses more lag than Kelli from P5 to P6: 72 degrees v. 63 degrees. 2. Kelli has more lag at P6: 120 degrees v. 127 degrees. 3. Kelli has more lag at low point (shaft vertical): 166 degrees v. 5 degrees of flip by Kevin. Spin away, maestro!!!
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Post by chipitin on Aug 14, 2013 21:49:10 GMT -5
It's too funny, he's trying to save what's left of their bullshit classifications. Shields is not a flipper...end of story. Jeffy fails to take into account the shaft bending and the parallax issue and just all the problems with using 2d pics and line drawing programs all because he has an agenda which is the Kelvin agenda.
It's pathetic but I have to say it was coming...only was a matter of time, when you have an agenda and a huge ego and always think you're right eventually you get to eat some crow.... yummy for Jeffy...lol!
I'm so happy that I was able to help.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 14, 2013 21:54:08 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this photo of Luke Donald and KS. He then stated-: " I did not label Luke a "flipper". He is obviously a roller. Pure rollers look like drive/holders at impact. Flip/rollers like Kevin look like a flipper at impact." He is implying that KS is a flip-roller because the yellow line drawn along the length of the clubshaft passes inside (to the right) of his left arm in that image. However, that implication is invalid because he needs to show that the i) left wrist is more dorsiflexed and he needs to exclude the possibility that it is due to rolling. The reality is that KS maintains a FLW through impact and the clubshaft "appears" to be flipped forward secondary to his rolling action through impact. Here are better quality capture images from the KS video. Image 1 is at impact and one can clearly see that he has a FLW and that his hands are marginally ahead of his clubhead so that he has a small degree of forward shaft lean. That means that he is not flipping at impact. Also, note that the radial border of his lower left forearm is facing slightly away from the target and the logo of his glove is facing the camera. Image 2 is the next post-impact frame. One can clearly see that he still has a FLW and that there is no flipping, but the logo of his glove has rotated more targetwards and the radial border of his left lower forearm has rotated more targetwards. In other words, KS is rolling through impact and he is already into the start of his full-roll hand release action. Image 3 is the next post-impact frame - and this is the frame that Jeffy decided to use. I have drawn a blue line over the radial border of his left forearm and one can see that it is now facing the camera due to continued counterclockwise of his left lower forearm/FLW. The logo of his glove is no longer visible because it is now facing the target due to continued rotation of his lower left forearm/left hand. The back of his left wrist is blurred, but if you use a swing analyser program to study this video, you will realize that he still has a FLW. Note that the clubshaft now "appears" to have flipped ahead of the hands, but that is not due to left wrist dorsiflexion, and it is due to the rotation of his FLW/intact LAFW through impact. Here is an image of KS at P8.5 when he has completed his finish swivel action. perfectgolfswingreview.net/ShieldsFinishSwivel.jpg [/img] He has a FLW. Flippers do not get to that FLW-position at P8.5 if they had a bent (dorsiflexed) left wrist soon after impact. If you study KS's swing video using a swing analyser program and advance the video frame-by-frame, you will clearly see that KS uses a non-delayed full-roll hand release action and he maintains a FLW throughout this hand release action between P7 and P8.5. There is no "evidence" that KS dorsiflxes his left wrist and flips through impact. Jeffy may not like my definition of flipping as having the element of "left wrist dorsiflexion" as part of the definition, but KM does - see his release article at www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.html KM defines flipping as follows-: " A Flip shall be defined by the clubshaft passing the left forearm and the left wrist cupping." He even has an accompanying photo - as follows. Note that he has drawn orangle lines to show cupping (dorsiflexion) of the left wrist. I agree with KM - the definition of flipping-through-impact must include a demonstration of left wrist dorsiflexion-through-impact. There is no evidence that KS dorsiflexes his left wrist through impact, so don't be fooled by Jeffy's biased photo-demonstration. Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Aug 14, 2013 22:02:31 GMT -5
Spot on Jeff! Great analysis. Jeffy has no choice but to twist things as he has to try and protect his and Kelvin's classifications, unfortunately for them they have some problems associated with those classifications.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 14, 2013 22:20:13 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this photo of KO and KS. He then stated-: " Kelli v. Shields:
1. Shields loses more lag than Kelli from P5 to P6: 72 degrees v. 63 degrees.
2. Kelli has more lag at P6: 120 degrees v. 127 degrees.
3. Kelli has more lag at low point (shaft vertical): 166 degrees v. 5 degrees of flip by Kevin". The rate-of-change of lag angle only reflects the rate of PA#2 release and it depends on the physics/mechanics of the PA#2 release phenomenon. They both use a random release action, but KS has a faster PA#2 release action. The claim that KS has 5 degrees of flip at low point is obviously wrong. The measured angle would have to be 185 degrees if he was 5 degrees flipped, and not 175 degrees. He actually still has 5 degrees of retained lag angle at impact - and one can clearly see that his hands are ahead of the clubhead in that image. KO has 166 degrees of lag angle at impact (which is actually ahead of low point - note that her left arm is angled forwards in that image, and note that her hands are well forward of her left thigh. "Handle-draggers" or TGMers may like that image. Jeff.
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