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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 21:01:59 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " No way you can tell by looking at video from just one angle, but all the AMM/TPI graphs I have seen show the left wrist moving to extension through impact. The difference between a flat DHer and an underflipper is pretty much when the move to extension begins." Since when do you believe in the validity of those graphs - not precisely knowing how the measurements are made? I am only willing to define flipping as being present when clearly discernible left wrist dorsflexion is visibly present on a slow motion video. You also wrote-: " Since the shaft is passing the left forearm, we are seeing flipping as well as rolling. You just choose to ignore the flipping." The shaft bypassing the left forearm can entirely be due to left forearm rotation which is clearly visible in those video capture images. By contrast, there is no visible evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in those post-impact images, and you are ignoring that fact. Consider Ernie Els swing action. I have previously demonstrated that Ernie Els doesn't flip after impact and he performs a non-delayed full-roll hand release action without any dorsiflexion of his left wrist between P7 and P7.2+. However, he demonstrates the same clubshaft flipping passed the left forearm at P7.15 - and it is entirely due to his rolling motion. I have drawn yellow lines to show that the clubshaft is angled ahead of the left forearm, and it is entirely due to rolling and not flipping. I believe that the same situation applies to KS's swing (which actually shows less forward angulation of the shaft relative to the left forearm). You posted this image of Luke Donald. You then wrote-: " Pure roller Luke Donald with less than half of the extension of Shields, and no flip" The reason why the clubshaft has not flipped passed the left forearm in this particular swing is because he is not flipping or rolling (note that the logo on his left glove has only minimally rotated counterclockwise). You also wrote-: " Couldn't find any references to the flip/roll release in the February 2012 article. Nothing posted there from 2013". I don't know which February 2012 article you are writing about - I was referring you to my "impact-and-followthrough" chapter, which was revised in February 2013. perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htmJeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 21:10:15 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "Ray, thanks for the non-answer. Jeff is really scraping the bottom of the barrel by letting you post here."
Chipitin replied-: "Perfectly good answer. And have no idea what the rest of your comment means, but I will say if anyone knows the bottom of a barrel it is certainly you."
I don't know who Chipitin (or Ray) is and the rules allow any forum member to join and post as long as they don't indulge in ad hominem attacks.
Both statements have nothing to do with golf swing biomechanic/mechanics, and they are overt ad hominem insults. If you both continue, then you will both be banned from this forum. Vigorous/vehement insults can only be freely made with reference to the quality of the reasoning re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics manifested by any forum member.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 21:13:30 GMT -5
OK, found it. I thought this was interesting; all three are flipping, according to you. Where's the cupping of the left wrist???
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 21:15:32 GMT -5
chipitin is "footwedge" that you have banned may times here under that and several other aliases. His name Is Ray and he is from Winnipeg.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 21:19:30 GMT -5
Perfectly good answer. And have no idea what the rest of your comment means, but I will say if anyone knows the bottom of a barrel it is certainly you. Ray, I guess you must think that Jeff Mann's classification system is all wrong because he also includes "flipping". See my reply to Jeff immediately above.
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Post by chipitin on Aug 16, 2013 21:26:04 GMT -5
Perfectly good answer. And have no idea what the rest of your comment means, but I will say if anyone knows the bottom of a barrel it is certainly you. Ray, I guess you must think that Jeff Mann's classification system is all wrong because he also includes "flipping". See my reply to Jeff immediately above. I actually agree with Dr. Mann's description of flipping that he posted here.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 21:30:12 GMT -5
I rest my case!!!!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 21:32:48 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "OK, found it. I thought this was interesting; all three are flipping, according to you. Where's the cupping of the left wrist???
Good point! That's my mistake and I must correct that error because only Brandt Snedeker manifests left wrist dorsiflexion. This lengthy debate has helped me to better appreciate to what degree rolling can get the clubshaft to flip passed the left forearm (when viewed from a face-on perspective) thereby mimicing flipping, and I must definitely revise that Q&A number 8 to clarify that point.
By the way, I only defined flip-rolling in the main section of the paper - when I discussed Louis Oosthuizen's swing. I definitely need to write more on the topic of flip-rolling when I revise Q&A number 8. This debate has helped me to clarify my own thinking on the differences between rolling and flip-rolling.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 21:40:20 GMT -5
I have deleted, or modified, a few of Jeffy's/Chipitin's posts because they were trading in ad hominem insults. Back-and-forth ad hominem insults will not be tolerated in this forum, and I will delete all of that transgressing forum member's posts if that behaviour continues.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 22:03:04 GMT -5
Jeffy, You posted this image. You then wrote-: " I rest my case!!!!" If I interpret you correctly (based on a very long exposure to your posts), then I presume that you are making an inferential judgement that KS must be flipping because the flip-angle is 9 degrees greater. However, an "inference" is not "proof". You have to take into account the degree of rolling manifested per unit time by each golfer, and the accumulator #3 angle (which determines the amount of clubhead movement in space per unit degree of roll) of each golfer. You also cannot escape the fact that if we estimate the degree of roll by examining the degree of rotation of the FLW and/or left lower forearm (watchface area) that manifests between P7 and P7.15, then we must also estimate the degree of flipping by estimating the degree of left wrist dorsiflexion that manifests in the same period of time. This would be an excellent research project for KM's Phantom camera if one uses a frame rate of 5,000-10,000 frames/second. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 22:55:48 GMT -5
If I interpret you correctly (based on a very long exposure to your posts), then I presume that you are making an inferential judgement that KS must be flipping because the flip-angle is 9 degrees greater. However, an "inference" is not "proof". You have to take into account the degree of rolling manifested per unit time by each golfer, and the accumulator #3 angle (which determines the amount of clubhead movement in space per unit degree of roll) of each golfer. You also cannot escape the fact that if we estimate the degree of roll by examining the degree of rotation of the FLW and/or left lower forearm (watchface area) that manifests between P7 and P7.15, then we must also estimate the degree of flipping by estimating the degree of left wrist dorsiflexion that manifests in the same period of time. This would be an excellent research project for KM's Phantom camera if one uses a frame rate of 5,000-10,000 frames/second. Jeff. Wrong. He is flipping based on your definition, as well as Kelvin's. Too late to say "never mind"!!
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 22:58:24 GMT -5
Ray, I guess you must think that Jeff Mann's classification system is all wrong because he also includes "flipping". See my reply to Jeff immediately above. I actually agree with Dr. Mann's description of flipping that he posted here. And how is his description different from Kelvin's? Mann's beef is that Kelvin doesn't follow his definition closely enough when classifying players, not that he has a different definition.
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Post by chipitin on Aug 17, 2013 0:04:54 GMT -5
If I interpret you correctly (based on a very long exposure to your posts), then I presume that you are making an inferential judgement that KS must be flipping because the flip-angle is 9 degrees greater. However, an "inference" is not "proof". You have to take into account the degree of rolling manifested per unit time by each golfer, and the accumulator #3 angle (which determines the amount of clubhead movement in space per unit degree of roll) of each golfer. You also cannot escape the fact that if we estimate the degree of roll by examining the degree of rotation of the FLW and/or left lower forearm (watchface area) that manifests between P7 and P7.15, then we must also estimate the degree of flipping by estimating the degree of left wrist dorsiflexion that manifests in the same period of time. This would be an excellent research project for KM's Phantom camera if one uses a frame rate of 5,000-10,000 frames/second. Jeff. Wrong. He is flipping based on your definition, as well as Kelvin's. Too late to say "never mind"!! Sorry but you have your facts mixed up, it was Tapio who ranted about" finger twisting" to Cwdlaw claiming that Dr. Mann said it was a medical term. I only asked him to show where Dr. Mann said " finger twisting" was a medical term. I then told him it's a torque applied by the fingers at the grip end. which he has shown in his p.f. video that Dr. Mann posted here and described in detail what Tapio was doing. So your claims are unfounded.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 17, 2013 7:48:28 GMT -5
I have continued to modify/edit Jeffy's/Chipitin's posts in order to remove any back-and-forth comments that have nothing to do with golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 17, 2013 8:49:39 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Wrong. He is flipping based on your definition, as well as Kelvin's. Too late to say "never mind"!!"
Where is the "evidence" that he is flipping based on my definition, which requires visual evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion? You have never produced an image that shows any dorsiflexion of KS's left wrist.
Jeff.
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