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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 12:07:14 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " But, enough quibbling over whether Kevin is a roller or a flip/roller. How about telling us your opinion on other aspects of his swing that I've criticized? Do you agree that Kevin "loses his spine angle" and is a goat humper? Do you agree that he has a hip stall? Do you agree that his clubface is wide open coming down so he has to "slam it shut" late in the downswing??" I am not interested enough in in KS's swing action to study his swing action to determine whether he loses his spine angle or whether he is a goat-humper. However, Jeffy has never understood that all golfers who use a neutral left hand grip (and who use an intact LAFW technique) will have to rotate their left arm/forearm clockwise in their backswing and counterclockwise in their downswing. That means that the clubface will always open in the backswing and close during the PA#3 release action (which happens between P6.5 and impact). The clubface can only be deemed to be wide-open in a golfer (who plays with an intact LAFW between P4 and P7) if the clubface is open to the back of the golfer's FLW/lower left forearm. Jeffy has presented no evidence of that phenomenon happening in KS's downswing action. Jeff. Actually, ALL golfers rotate open and rotate shut to some degree. I've known that since I read "The Search for the Perfect Golf Swing", must have been 30 years ago.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 12:09:33 GMT -5
Jeffy asked-: "Do you agree with my assessment that Kevin "just waves at it" because he has an inherently unstable release style that constrains his playable swingspeed? Do you think Kevin hits it very far with that swing?"
I know of no reason why a roller release action should be deemed to be unstable or why it should constrain clubhead speed. I would like to see Jeffy present an argument defending that position. My major objection relating to a roller release action is that clubface control through the immediate impact zone is much more timing-dependent (compared to a no-roll DH-release action or a delayed full-roll DH-release action) and it is therefore more difficult to consistently ensure a square clubface at impact.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 12:13:01 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " But, enough quibbling over whether Kevin is a roller or a flip/roller. How about telling us your opinion on other aspects of his swing that I've criticized? Do you agree that Kevin "loses his spine angle" and is a goat humper? Do you agree that he has a hip stall? Do you agree that his clubface is wide open coming down so he has to "slam it shut" late in the downswing??" I am not interested enough in in KS's swing action to study his swing action to determine whether he loses his spine angle or whether he is a goat-humper. However, Jeffy has never understood that all golfers who use a neutral left hand grip (and who use an intact LAFW technique) will have to rotate their left arm/forearm clockwise in their backswing and counterclockwise in their downswing. That means that the clubface will always open in the backswing and close during the PA#3 release action (which happens between P6.5 and impact). The clubface can only be deemed to be wide-open in a golfer (who plays with an intact LAFW between P4 and P7) if the clubface is open to the back of the golfer's FLW/lower left forearm. Jeffy has presented no evidence of that phenomenon happening in KS's downswing action. Jeff. OK, so you are only interested in whether or not he is a flipper? Nothing else about his swing is even worth analyzing or discussing??
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 12:17:33 GMT -5
Jeffy asked-: " Do you agree with my assessment that Kevin "just waves at it" because he has an inherently unstable release style that constrains his playable swingspeed? Do you think Kevin hits it very far with that swing?" I know of no reason why a roller release action should be deemed to be unstable or why it should constrain clubhead speed. I would like to see Jeffy present an argument defending that position. My major objection relating to a roller release action is that clubface control through the immediate impact zone is much more timing-dependent (compared to a no-roll DH-release action or a delayed full-roll DH-release action) and it is therefore more difficult to consistently ensure a square clubface at impact. Jeff. Huh? OK, I'll accept "timing dependent" and "more difficult to consistently square the clubface at impact" instead of "unstable". Why use one word when ten will do? I said "constrains playable swingspeed". Timing dependent swings are easier to time with slower swingspeeds: Mickelson and Donald are excellent iron players, but poor drivers.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 12:22:05 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this photo of KO. He wrote-: " This is too much. I guess you think Kelli's "low point" is on the left when her forearm is vertical and the clubhead is a few inches off the ground. Just watch the video again and look closely at the clubhead: on the right represents the low point; the clubhead starts rising thereafter." What a ridiculous comment! Why would Jeffy infer that I think that image 1 is at low point. Low point is defined as the nadir of the clubhead arc and it usually occurs when the left arm and clubshaft are in a straight line condition and that usually happens when the left arm is vertical and aligned vertically below the left shoulder socket - presuming the absence of a large degree of secondary axis tilt. Low point will move forward of the left shoulder socket if the golfer has a lot of secondary axis tilt, and then the left arm will not be vertical at low point. The left arm will be angled forward - as can be seen in KO's swing. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 12:23:13 GMT -5
BTW, you are long past the point of arguing for the sake of arguing. No wonder nobody likes to play with you!!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 12:30:28 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "I said "constrains playable swingspeed". Timing dependent swings are easier to time with slower swingspeeds: Mickelson and Donald are excellent iron players, but poor drivers."
I agree. That's why long-driver competitors (who still have to be accurate enough to keep the ball within the grid) don't use a roller release action. Rollers are much more likely to be inaccurate when using a longer club (driver) - especially if they lose their rhythm and try to swing too fast.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 12:33:13 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this photo of KO. He wrote-: " This is too much. I guess you think Kelli's "low point" is on the left when her forearm is vertical and the clubhead is a few inches off the ground. Just watch the video again and look closely at the clubhead: on the right represents the low point; the clubhead starts rising thereafter." What a ridiculous comment! Why would Jeffy infer that I think that image 1 is at low point. Low point is defined as the nadir of the clubhead arc and it usually occurs when the left arm and clubshaft are in a straight line condition and that usually happens when the left arm is vertical and aligned vertically below the left shoulder socket - presuming the absence of a large degree of secondary axis tilt. Low point will move forward of the left shoulder socket if the golfer has a lot of secondary axis tilt, and then the left arm will not be vertical at low point. The left arm will be angled forward - as can be seen in KO's swing. Jeff. Because you posted this; low point in Kelli's swing doesn't happen until the club is past her left foot, as shown above on the right. Also, I don't see "a lot of secondary axis tilt" in Kelli's swing; in fact, Shields has as much or more!! Jeffy posted this photo of KO and KS. KO has 166 degrees of lag angle at impact (which is actually ahead of low point - note that her left arm is angled forwards in that image, and note that her hands are well forward of her left thigh. "Handle-draggers" or TGMers may like that image. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 13:12:06 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Also, I don't see "a lot of secondary axis tilt" in Kelli's swing; in fact, Shields has as much or more!!"
It is true that KS has more secondary axis tilt, but the outer border of his left pelvis is much more situated target-wards at impact and if you drop a vertical line down from his left shoulder socket it is much closer to his left foot (compared to KO whose left shoulder socket is well back of her left foot at impact).
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 13:22:20 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " Also, I don't see "a lot of secondary axis tilt" in Kelli's swing; in fact, Shields has as much or more!!" It is true that KS has more secondary axis tilt, but the outer border of his left pelvis is much more situated target-wards at impact and if you drop a vertical line down from his left shoulder socket it is much closer to his left foot (compared to KO whose left shoulder socket is well back of her left foot at impact).Jeff. Obviously, he flips and needs the left shoulder closer to the target for a descending blow. "Chest covering the ball", what Leadbetter tells all his flippers...
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 16:03:28 GMT -5
Back to what a flip/roll looks like. In December 2011, I started a thread at Richie's which compared John Oda's 14-year old flip/roll swing with his 15-year old underflip. Here are the illustrations I posted then: Before impact: Impact: Post-impact: You can find the thread here: richie3jack.proboards.com/thread/3039/trackman-tell
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 16:12:40 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 18:55:28 GMT -5
Jeffy - I can see no evidence of flipping in either John Oda's or KS's post-impact photos - as they both have a FLW with no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion. They are simply rolling after impact. The idea that they are flipping is merely a figment of your imagination. There is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in John Oda's underflip swing either, and he is merely rolling. KM defines an underflip swing as showing evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion (cupping). However, I am not surprised that you are calling him an underflipper, because many of the photos in KM's release article showing "underflippers" also have no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion, and they are merely rollers - one can see his article at www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.htmlHere are examples. Padraig Harrington Chris Wood Unknown golfer Brandt Snedeker is also listed as an underflipper, and I can accept that he is flipping because I can see that his left wrist is dorsiflexed and I can also see that his clushaft is angled dispropotionately forward (more than is causally due to rolling). Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 19:29:08 GMT -5
Jeffy - I can see no evidence of flipping in either John Oda's or KS's post-impact photos - as they both have a FLW with no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion. They are simply rolling after impact. The idea that they are flipping is merely a figment of your imagination. Kelvin's imagination: he has classified both as flip/rolling. Rollers have more active right hand roll than 15-year old John Oda and those three, and all four have the lead wrist extension and trail wrist flexion. Obvious here; note the difference in clubface closure:
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 19:46:07 GMT -5
In any case, well before I had video of Kevin Shields, Kelvin provided two concrete examples of flip/rollers and their movements match Kevin Shields' identically. You may not like that fact, but there is absolutely no evidence that there is any attempt to misclassify his release due to bias or an "agenda". It is what it is. Shall we move on?
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