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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 19:53:19 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "Rollers have more active right hand roll than 15-year old John Oda and those three, and all four have the lead wrist extension and trail wrist flexion. Obvious here; note the difference in clubface closure".
I have a different definition of rollers and flip-rollers. Rollers are golfers who continue to roll after impact, and they can vary in their rate of roll and therefore have different degrees of clubface closure. In those comparative photos of John Oda, one can clearly see that the radial border of his left lower forearm is more rotated counterclockwise in his flip-rolling swing (compared to his underflip swing) and that will cause a greater degree of clubface closure. I have to see definite evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion to label a roller a flip-roller, and those photos do not show any definite evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion. Moving from left wrist palmar flexion (which often exists at impact if a golfer has forward shaft lean) back to a condition of a neutral left wrist state (GFLW) will cause a small change in clubshaft angularity through impact, but it doesn't represent flipping if the degree of change in clubshaft angularity doesn't cause overt left wrist dorsiflexion that is clearly visible (eg. compare Brandt Snedeker's post-impact flip-rolling photo to Padraig Harrington's post-impact rolling photo). The degree of rear wrist flexion has no diagnostic value because it depends on whether the golfer does (or does not) run-out-of-right arm.
Jeffy/KM are entitled to have their own definitions, but I would not be surprised to discover that many forum members/guests will find their classification invalid and non-useful.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 22:42:40 GMT -5
Another point regarding this debate between Jeffy/KM and me about what represents "flipping" through impact - and that relates to my strong belief in the value of playing golf with an intact LAFW between P4 and P7.5 (or at least P7.2) is that it eliminates the timing-variable of any added horizontal left wrist motion (flipping) through the immediate impact zone. My definition of "flipping" is a degree of left wrist bending/flipping that is clearly discernible and that definitely disrupts the intact LAFW. Consider this post-impact capture image of Padraig Harrington, which KM classifies as a flip (underflip subtype). I think that he still has an intact LAFW (non-disrupted LAFW) and that he is simply rolling his intact LAFW after impact. The same concept applies to KS's swing action (in that particular swing video) - there is no disruption of his intact LAFW during his followthrough and I therefore think that it is inappropriate to describe their followthrough action as being a flip-roll action. From my perspective, the use of the term "flip" in describing any hand release action through the impact zone implies a disruption of an intact LAFW and that is not happening in PH's or KS's swing action. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 0:08:58 GMT -5
FYI, flippers have superior playing records compared to rollers, so your bias against flippers is a little strange. Also, Harrington is obviously not rolling post-impact, so your claim that he is a roller is not very convincing.
You can make up your own definition of a flip/roller, but, since you have never published it before now, it is clearly tainted by your desire to discredit me and Kelvin. Kel's definition has been published since December 2011, so it it is obviously unbiased, and Shields fits it to a "T". We agree to disagree.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 7:19:49 GMT -5
Jeffy, I never labelled PH as being a "roller" in the sense of Phil Mickelson being a roller (where the lead forearm continues to supinate to a marked degree). I simply stated that he rolled his FLW after impact. Here is his impact FLW orientation. And here is his post-impact FLW orientation. It is patently obvious that there has been a certain amount of counterclockwise rotation of his FLW in his early followthrough and there is no evidence that he is flipping (bending his FLW). Interestingly, there is very little difference between the degree of counterclockwise rotation of PH's FLW in the early followthrough than those rollers featured in KM's release article. Here is an example - D J Trahan Impact Post-impact What is the difference between PH and DJT that makes DJT a roller, and PH as not being a roller? You also wrote-: " You can make up your own definition of a flip/roller, but, since you have never published it before now, it is clearly tainted by your desire to discredit me and Kelvin." That's wrong. I have defined flip-rolling in my revised impact chapter, which has been posted on my website since February 2013. By the way, I am obviously trying to discredit you/KM because I think that both of you are wrong regarding many aspects of golf swing biomechanics. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 15:00:50 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this comparison photo of John Oda and KS in his forum. Jeffy then wrote-: " Well, looks like Johnny has solved his flipping problem, but Kevin still has some work to do." Where is the evidence that KS is flipping in that photo? I presume that Jeffy is concluding that flipping must be present because the yellow line drawn along the length of the left arm is not in a straight line relationship with the yellow line drawn along the length of the clubshaft. However, the fact that they are not in a straight line relationship (when viewed from a face-on perspective) doesn't mean that flipping (left wrist dorsiflexion) is present. Here is a comparison between KS (image 1) and Ernie Els (image 2) at the P7.4 position. They look exactly the same. Does Jeffy imply that there is evidence that Ernie Els is flipping at the P7.4 position? It is easy to prove that Ernie Els is not flipping by looking at an upline video. Here are capture images. Note that he still has a FLW and intact LAFW (clubshaft is rotating at the same rpm as the left lower forearm arm so they are still aligned in a straight line relationship from a rotational perspective) in images 4 and 5, and there is no evidence of flipping (left wrist dorsiflexion). I am baffled as to how Jeffy can make such an elementary mistake when interpreting video capture images. Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Aug 16, 2013 16:18:21 GMT -5
The simple answer is he has an agenda to promote Kelvin's classifications and theories regardless of the facts. Why let the facts get in the way when you are trying to "sell" and promote your agenda.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 18:26:19 GMT -5
Jeffy, I never labelled PH as being a "roller" in the sense of Phil Mickelson being a roller (where the lead forearm continues to supinate to a marked degree). I simply stated that he rolled his FLW after impact. Here is his impact FLW orientation. And here is his post-impact FLW orientation. It is patently obvious that there has been a certain amount of counterclockwise rotation of his FLW in his early followthrough and there is no evidence that he is flipping (bending his FLW). Padrig is on the borderline between an underflipper and a flat DHer. However, the shaft has passed the forearm and the left wrist is in extension and does show a slight cup, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. The position of the right hand is what distinguishes between Padrig and roller Trahan; note that Trahan's clubface is rotated more counter-clockwise. Couldn't find any references to the flip/roll release in the February 2012 article. Nothing posted there from 2013.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 18:31:24 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this comparison photo of John Oda and KS in his forum. Jeffy then wrote-: " Well, looks like Johnny has solved his flipping problem, but Kevin still has some work to do." Where is the evidence that KS is flipping in that photo?You are correct that from that photo alone it is not possible to tell that Kevin is rolling, flipping, or flip/rolling. That was established by the movements immediately after impact. I chose that photo to show how far past John maintains the shaft in line with his left forearm compared to Kevin, since they were virtually identical in late 2011.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 18:33:24 GMT -5
The simple answer is he has an agenda to promote Kelvin's classifications and theories regardless of the facts. Why let the facts get in the way when you are trying to "sell" and promote your agenda. How does classifying Kevin as a flip/roller instead of a roller promote this agenda?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 16, 2013 19:10:16 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " Padraig is on the borderline between an underflipper and a flat DHer. However, the shaft has passed the forearm and the left wrist is in extension and does show a slight cup, whether you want to acknowledge it or not." The slight cup in his left wrist is the normal appearance of a GFLW if the LAFW is intact - presuming that a golfer has a neutral left hand grip (like PH). The clubshaft must "appear" to be slightly passed the left arm at P7.15 if he has rolled a small amount after impact, and I have previously demonstrated that there is definite rotation of his lower forearm/FLW between P7 and P7.15. It can only be deemed to be causally due to flipping if you can demonstrate that his degree of left wrist cupping (dorsiflexion) has increased between P7 and P7.15, and I can see no evidence of that fact. You also wrote-: " The position of the right hand is what distinguishes between Padraig and roller Trahan; note that Trahan's clubface is rotated more counter-clockwise.That only indicates that DJT has rolled slightly more than PH, but what defines a roller? What is the threshold of the amount-of-roll that defines a roller, or do you believe that the biomechanics of the roll motion are different? You wrote-: " You are correct that from that photo alone it is not possible to tell that Kevin is rolling, flipping, or flip/rolling. That was established by the movements immediately after impact". What movements happened immediately after impact that indicates "flipping". Here are the three consecutive frames through impact - which show 10 degrees of roll. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 19:49:30 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " Padraig is on the borderline between an underflipper and a flat DHer. However, the shaft has passed the forearm and the left wrist is in extension and does show a slight cup, whether you want to acknowledge it or not." The slight cup in his left wrist is the normal appearance of a GFLW if the LAFW is intact - presuming that a golfer has a neutral left hand grip (like PH). The clubshaft must "appear" to be slightly passed the left arm at P7.15 if he has rolled a small amount after impact, and I have previously demonstrated that there is definite rotation of his lower forearm/FLW between P7 and P7.15. It can only be deemed to be causally due to flipping if you can demonstrate that his degree of left wrist cupping (dorsiflexion) has increased between P7 and P7.15, and I can see no evidence of that fact.No way you can tell by looking at video from just one angle, but all the AMM/TPI graphs I have seen show the left wrist moving to extension through impact. The difference between a flat DHer and an underflipper is pretty much when the move to extension begins. No, it indicates the right hand has rolled more, which is one of the distinct differences. Refer to Kel's May article for all of them. Since the shaft is passing the left forearm, we are seeing flipping as well as rolling. You just choose to ignore the flipping.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 20:31:59 GMT -5
Pure roller Luke Donald with less than half of the extension of Shields, and no flip:
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Post by chipitin on Aug 16, 2013 20:50:59 GMT -5
The simple answer is he has an agenda to promote Kelvin's classifications and theories regardless of the facts. Why let the facts get in the way when you are trying to "sell" and promote your agenda. How does classifying Kevin as a flip/roller instead of a roller promote this agenda? Kevin does not flip...period. His lead wrist does not breakdown before or at impact and at the moment of ball separation from the clubface. You just can't accept the fact that Kelvin's or your idea of a flip is incorrect. You have a classification that you promote as a flip which is ridiculous and has no basis in reality and doesn't affect club ball contact. The only real flip is a breakdown of the lead wrist before and during ball clubhead contact that would affect the impact parameters, anything else that you think you see on a pic or video is meaningless.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 16, 2013 20:54:40 GMT -5
Ray, thanks for the non-answer. Jeff is really scraping the bottom of the barrel by letting you post here.
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Post by chipitin on Aug 16, 2013 20:57:32 GMT -5
Perfectly good answer. And have no idea what the rest of your comment means, but I will say if anyone knows the bottom of a barrel it is certainly you.
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