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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 9:32:32 GMT -5
There is a certain irony involved in my defense of KS's swing action in the sense that KS doesn't intellectually believe in the validity of his personal swing action. KS follows the dictates of my golf instructional philosophy in his "real life" swing action because he maintains a FLW/intact LAFW throughout his swing action from P4 to P8.5+, and he doesn't flip-bend his left wrist soon after impact as recommended by BM. KS is an avowed BM-disciple, and he has repeatedly stated that he supports the idea of flip-bending the left wrist soon after impact. However, he doesn't follow that BM-ideology in his personal swing action and I find the discrepancy between his swing ideology and his "real life" swing action ironical.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 10:15:05 GMT -5
KM defines flipping as follows-: " A Flip shall be defined by the clubshaft passing the left forearm and the left wrist cupping." He even has an accompanying photo - as follows. Note that he has drawn orangle lines to show cupping (dorsiflexion) of the left wrist. I agree with KM - the definition of flipping-through-impact must include a demonstration of left wrist dorsiflexion-through-impact. There is no evidence that KS dorsiflexes his left wrist through impact, so don't be fooled by Jeffy's biased photo-demonstration. Jeff. That picture is of a pure flipper, not a flip/roler. In his May 2013 article, Kelvin included a GIF of what a flip/roll looks like: Also, you may recall that in my initial post I labeled Kevin as a "goat humping, hip stalling, door slamming roller". A little bit later I got this email from Kelvin: BTW, you should read Kel's May 2013 article, it explains in detail how early right shoulder internal rotation can lead to flipping. www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2013-05-whats-your-release-style-part-2.html
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 10:27:58 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this photo of KO and KS. He then stated-: " Kelli v. Shields:
1. Shields loses more lag than Kelli from P5 to P6: 72 degrees v. 63 degrees.
2. Kelli has more lag at P6: 120 degrees v. 127 degrees.
3. Kelli has more lag at low point (shaft vertical): 166 degrees v. 5 degrees of flip by Kevin". The rate-of-change of lag angle only reflects the rate of PA#2 release and it depends on the physics/mechanics of the PA#2 release phenomenon. They both use a random release action, but KS has a faster PA#2 release action. The claim that KS has 5 degrees of flip at low point is obviously wrong. The measured angle would have to be 185 degrees if he was 5 degrees flipped, and not 175 degrees. He actually still has 5 degrees of retained lag angle at impact - and one can clearly see that his hands are ahead of the clubhead in that image.Wrong again. Can't you afford a protractor? The Objectus analysis software only displays the inside angle: it never shows an angle above 180 degrees. As you can see below, Kevin flips 10 degrees in just two frames. Also, the only reason his hands are ahead of the clubhead is he has his upper body more towards the target, "covering the ball with his chest", a common move by flippers to create a descending blow. Non-flippers like Kellie can keep her upper body away from the target and still have a negative attack angle. Also, newly minted PGA champions might like it; Dufner on the left:
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 10:51:45 GMT -5
KO has 166 degrees of lag angle at impact (which is actually ahead of low point - note that her left arm is angled forwards in that image, and note that her hands are well forward of her left thigh. "Handle-draggers" or TGMers may like that image. Jeff. This is too much. I guess you think Kelli's "low point" is on the left when her forearm is vertical and the clubhead is a few inches off the ground. Just watch the video again and look closely at the clubhead: on the right represents the low point; the clubhead starts rising thereafter.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:05:23 GMT -5
There is a certain irony involved in my defense of KS's swing action in the sense that KS doesn't intellectually believe in the validity of his personal swing action. KS follows the dictates of my golf instructional philosophy in his "real life" swing action because he maintains a FLW/intact LAFW throughout his swing action from P4 to P8.5+, and he doesn't flip-bend his left wrist soon after impact as recommended by BM. KS is an avowed BM-disciple, and he has repeatedly stated that he supports the idea of flip-bending the left wrist soon after impact. However, he doesn't follow that BM-ideology in his personal swing action and I find the discrepancy between his swing ideology and his "real life" swing action ironical. Jeff. Uh, wrong again. As Hogan said, "it is easy to see if you know where to look".
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 11:05:30 GMT -5
Jeffy, I find it very interesting to read that KM unequivocally states that KS is a flip-roller and that it doesn't happen on tour. First of all, I disagree that KS has any evidence of flipping in that particular swing video, and secondly KM has examples of PGA tour flip-rollers (eg. Stewart Cink) in his release articles. I would like to see KM defend his "belief" that KS has an unique form of flip-rolling that is not not found in a tour golfer. Also, I have read that May 2013 article by KM and I find his biomechanical argument that "right shoulder internal rotation produces a flip" meritless. I will dissect his weak argument in detail later. I certainly don't think that KM's release classification system is biomechanically valid. Here are a few examples of misclassification. He labels Chad Campbell a pro-flipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that image. He labels Ricky Barnes a pro-flipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflextion in that photo. He labels Anders Hansen an underflipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that photo. The back of his left wrist is similar in appearance to its pre-impact state. You also presented an animated gif of a golfer, who KM labels a flip-roller, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that animated gif. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:13:47 GMT -5
As Hogan said...
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:17:02 GMT -5
You also presented an animated gif of a golfer, who KM labels a flip-roller, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that animated gif.Jeff. That's why I posted it!!!! Good players that are flip/rollers don't have as extreme left wrist extension as pure flippers.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:22:59 GMT -5
Also, I have read that May 2013 article by KM and I find his biomechanical argument that "right shoulder internal rotation produces a flip" meritless. I will dissect his weak argument in detail later.Jeff. You when do that, please include examples of golfers that have retained right shoulder external rotation deep into the downswing and have flipped as well as examples of players with early right shoulder internal rotation that haven't flipped. And please be sure to explain why Lee Westwood loses so much lag early in the downswing if it is not due to early right shoulder internal rotation. He's "throwing from the top" lol
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:27:31 GMT -5
I certainly don't think that KM's release classification system is biomechanically valid.
Here are a few examples of misclassification.He labels Chad Campbell a pro-flipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that image. He labels Ricky Barnes a pro-flipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflextion in that photo. He labels Anders Hansen an underflipper, but there is no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion in that photo. The back of his left wrist is similar in appearance to its pre-impact state. Jeff. As you know, Kelvin does not base his classifications off of a single photo: he looks at 300fps video at multiple angles. In any case, feel free to think that he has misclassified three players. Doubt he'll lose sleep over it!!
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:31:05 GMT -5
But, enough quibbling over whether Kevin is a roller or a flip/roller. How about telling us your opinion on other aspects of his swing that I've criticized? Do you agree that Kevin "loses his spine angle" and is a goat humper? Do you agree that he has a hip stall? Do you agree that his clubface is wide open coming down so he has to "slam it shut" late in the downswing??
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 11:49:26 GMT -5
Jeffy, You posted this photo. All you have shown is that the clubshaft angle has changed 10 degrees as discerned from a "fixed" face-on camera position. It could be due to flipping (which necessitates left wrist dorsiflexion as being the causal factor) or it could be due to rolling through impact. When examining the KS-video and those three capture images, I can see no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion, but I can see a lot of evidence of rolling of his FLW through impact. The amount of angular clubhead movement per degree of roll-through-impact depends on the size of the golfer's accumulator #3 angle. You also posted capture images from another video. I agree with you 100% - that is an excellent example of post-impact flipping (where he dorsiflexes his left wrist after impact). He looks like he is using a wedge and many professional golfers wrongly (from my perspective) use a flipping action when they hit lob or flop shots. KS may also flip on many of his routiine iron shots, and my comment that he plays with an intact LAFW/FLW only pertains to that particular swing video that I examined. You also posted this photo of KS. That left wrist dorsiflexion is happening well beyond the P8 position and most professional golfers (who use an intact LAFW/FLW between P4 and P7.5) bend their left wrist during the early or late stages of their finish swivel action when they use a driver (or longer iron). You wrote the following about this animated gif which KM states shows flip-rolling -: " That's why I posted it!!!! Good players that are flip/rollers don't have as extreme left wrist extension as pure flippers". I realize that good players don't have extreme left wrist extension, but there is no evidence of any left wrist extension in that animated gif. That animated gif simply shows a roller release action. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:51:09 GMT -5
Do you agree with my assessment that Kevin "just waves at it" because he has an inherently unstable release style that constrains his playable swingspeed? Do you think Kevin hits it very far with that swing?
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 15, 2013 11:54:40 GMT -5
Jeffy, You posted this photo. All you have shown is that the clubshaft angle has changed 10 degrees as discerned from a "fixed" face-on camera position. It could be due to flipping (which necessitates left wrist dorsiflexion as being the causal factor) or it could be due to rolling through impact. When examining the KS-video and those three capture images, I can see no evidence of left wrist dorsiflexion, but I can see a lot of evidence of rolling of his FLW through impact. The amount of angular clubhead movement per degree of roll-through-impact depends on the size of the golfer's accumulator #3 angle. You also posted capture images from another video. I agree with you 100% - that is an excellent example of post-impact flipping (where he dorsiflexes his left wrist after impact). He looks like he is using a wedge and many professional golfers wrongly (from my perspective) use a flipping action when they hit lob or flop shots. KS may also flip on many of his routiine iron shots, and my comment that he plays with an intact LAFW/FLW only pertains to that particular swing video that I examined. You also posted this photo of KS. That left wrist dorsiflexion is happening well beyond the P8 position and most professional golfers (who use an intact LAFW/FLW between P4 and P7.5) bend their left wrist during the early or late stages of their finish swivel action when they use a driver (or longer iron). You wrote the following about this animated gif which KM states shows flip-rolling -: " That's why I posted it!!!! Good players that are flip/rollers don't have as extreme left wrist extension as pure flippers". I realize that good players don't have extreme left wrist extension, but there is no evidence of any left wrist extension in that animated gif. That animated gif simply shows a roller release action. Jeff. Enough already, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. What about other aspects of his swing?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 15, 2013 12:01:59 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "But, enough quibbling over whether Kevin is a roller or a flip/roller. How about telling us your opinion on other aspects of his swing that I've criticized? Do you agree that Kevin "loses his spine angle" and is a goat humper? Do you agree that he has a hip stall? Do you agree that his clubface is wide open coming down so he has to "slam it shut" late in the downswing??"
I am not interested enough in in KS's swing action to study his swing action to determine whether he loses his spine angle or whether he is a goat-humper. However, Jeffy has never understood that all golfers who use a neutral left hand grip (and who use an intact LAFW technique) will have to rotate their left arm/forearm clockwise in their backswing and counterclockwise in their downswing. That means that the clubface will always open in the backswing and close during the PA#3 release action (which happens between P6.5 and impact). The clubface can only be deemed to be wide-open in a golfer (who plays with an intact LAFW between P4 and P7) if the clubface is open to the back of the golfer's FLW/lower left forearm. Jeffy has presented no evidence of that phenomenon happening in KS's downswing action.
Jeff.
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